Hide Glue Tips/Pointers or Just Let Someone Else Use Wood Glue (70s F112 Bridge Lift)

[clipper]

So, I bought this little guy a couple months ago:
Guild F112

There were like 50 watchers and I was the only bidder. Hmmm...

It was clear from the photos that it's a player, and would need some work. The seller assured me that it had never been worked on, and that was the deal clincher. Action was super high and neck was bowed on receipt. My fear was a neck re-set, but the neck straightened out with a significant turn of the truss rods (about 3/4 of the way around for both). Straight as an arrow now and actually plays and sounds great.

Problem is, bridge is lifting. Not uncommon, and not a dealbreaker at this price point ($550), but I'd like to fix it to keep it going for the long haul. Thing is, everyone says hide glue, because that's what they used back then... But no one uses hide glue anywhere near me. We used to have a real good luthier in town but life changes have made his time scarce. The guy in GC laughed when I asked if he used hide glue, adding, "they probably didn't use it anyway." Another I talked to today (more of an electronics/amp place) told me he stopped using it years ago.

I've seen on this forum there's a guy in Connecticut who worked at Westerly, I could probably get to him in six months and it'd take him a couple more months, etc... We're talking about a $500 guitar here.

So, I'm considering DIY. But I've never used hide glue, and everyone in my area I've asked said they don't or won't use it. I hear it's a real PITA to use... I get it, it takes time to heat, it sets super fast (as it cools, it's setting and hardening, is what I've been told). But the thing is, this guitar has never been worked on in 45 years, which means, it's all hide glue, and I'd almost feel bad letting someone use anything else (ok, maybe that's silly, but...).

I've watched a couple YT videos (there are only a few), but I know that doesn't mean I can DO it, and there might be things left out of the videos (you know, like grandma's recipe where she always left out something -- a pinch of salt or a teaspoon of baking soda -- just to make sure no one else in the family could get it right).

So, we're looking at a player-grade guitar here (a really nice sounding and feeling one), at a low cost. Not investment grade. and will never be investment grade. And I'd like to keep it a player-grade guitar and not a parts guitar for as long as I can.

Should I go the hide glue route just because that's what they used back then, and to make it easier for future repairs if needed? Or have someone else do this and let them convince me of the merits of wood glue/tite-bond/krazy glue/epoxy alternative or whatever they prefer to use?

OTOH, if I'm going the hide glue route, it's almost certainly DIY (because no one near me uses it), so what suggestions/help/pointers can you give me, beyond what is available on YT?

 

[LeFinPepere]

Hello Clipper!! I'd stick (?) to hide glue for the "back then " reasons you mention. Titebond, and probably others, sells apparently user-friendly hide glue in a small bottle.You don't have to cook it, and it is reversible.It also depends on how exactly the bridge is lifting.On a classical guitar I made, string tension and time caused a "bump" in the top's wood-that's rather common- but the bridge is still firmly glued (thanks to hide glue!)and the guitar works just fine, only, it has a bump.Needs no fixing, it shows the top wood is thin enough to be flexible (and resonant). If the bridge is separating from the top, hide-glue.(Gives a nice "dead rabbit skin mojo" to your playing!)

 

[Nuuska]

Hello

Welcome to LTG

Are there any violin repair shops in your area?
They use hide-glue.

 

[Default]

As another option, you can order fish glue. It has a longer working time and lasts for years if you keep it in the refrigerator.

 

[AcornHouse]

Hello Clipper!! I'd stick (?) to hide glue for the "back then " reasons you mention. Titebond, and probably others, sells apparently user-friendly hide glue in a small bottle.You don't have to cook it, and it is reversible.It also depends on how exactly the bridge is lifting.On a classical guitar I made, string tension and time caused a "bump" in the top's wood-that's rather common- but the bridge is still firmly glued (thanks to hide glue!)and the guitar works just fine, only, it has a bump.Needs no fixing, it shows the top wood is thin enough to be flexible (and resonant). If the bridge is separating from the top, hide-glue.(Gives a nice "dead rabbit skin mojo" to your playing!)

DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT use Titebond liquid hide glue to reglue a bridge. The urea added to keep it in gel form at room temperature also causes it to develop “creep” under stress. (Creep is where the parts can start moving at the joint.) Exactly what you DON’T want a bridge to do, especially since it receives the most stress of any place on a guitar.

Either hot hide glue or Titebond original. I would add the fish glue that Steve mentioned but I don’t have any personal experience with it (yet), so I’ll hold off a recommendation until I do. Regardless which glue you go with. Make sure the glue surfaces are cleaned of old glue. Also, and this is a common issue with factory guitars, make sure that there is bare wood for the whole of the bridge’s profile On the soundboard. Sometimes you find that there is finish running under the bridge a little. Glue won’t stick to finish and leads to bridge failure.

 

[gjmalcyon]

Welcome. Stick around - nice folks around here.

How severe is the bridge lift? Guilds are known for the back edges of the bridges not being glued down as a result of the way Guild finished tops. On several of my older Guilds, I can insert a business card anywhere from 1/16 to 1/8 inch at the bottom of the bridge and they've stayed that way for as long as I've had them.

 

[LeFinPepere]

DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT use Titebond liquid hide glue to reglue a bridge. The urea added to keep it in gel form at room temperature also causes it to develop “creep” under stress. (Creep is where the parts can start moving at the joint.) Exactly what you DON’T want a bridge to do, especially since it receives the most stress of any place on a guitar.

Either hot hide glue or Titebond original. I would add the fish glue that Steve mentioned but I don’t have any personal experience with it (yet), so I’ll hold off a recommendation until I do. Regardless which glue you go with. Make sure the glue surfaces are cleaned of old glue. Also, and this is a common issue with factory guitars, make sure that there is bare wood for the whole of the bridge’s profile On the soundboard. Sometimes you find that there is finish running under the bridge a little. Glue won’t stick to finish and leads to bridge failure.

Thanks info on Titebond liquid hide glue...I should know better and not mention stuff I have no experience with..

 

[AcornHouse]

Thanks info on Titebond liquid hide glue...I should know better and not mention stuff I have no experience with..

It’s not an uncommon idea, and Titebond even mentions instruments in their literature about it. But if you check the various forums on guitar building and repair, or even guitar based forums like this one asking about it, you’ll find plenty of hate for it.
It does have its place. Personally, I tend to use it when glueing wood bindings since it does have such a long open time. But the bottle has to be fairly fresh, and that’s not an area under any stress, so creep isn’t an issue.

Hot hide glue is such a different animal (so to speak). It is remarkably resistant to creep; in fact the bond tend to get stronger as it cures. But it has a very short open time and requires more care and feeding, as it were. But the benefits more than outweigh its difficulties in use. Those difficulties can actually work for you in some instances. Because it has such a short open time (the period before it starts to cool and gel), it’s great for glueing shorter braces. No need for clamps, just hold it firmly in place for a minute or two.

 

[Boneman]

Were you thinking of taking the bridge off and re-glueing it altogether, or just seeping some glue under the lift and trying to press it back down?

 

[AcornHouse]

…, or just seeping some glue under the lift and trying to press it back down?

Don’t!

 

[wileypickett]

Don’t!

AH is right -- it's not recommended.

But I did have it done by my (late) luthier Jim Mouradian. Jim was a legend in the Boston area, with decades of experience, and he allowed me to choose between the "recommended-but-more-expensive" option or the "cheap-and-maybe-less-effective" option. Being a cheapskate, and it being a guitar I had very little invested in (a Takamine Martin copy if memory serves), I went with the latter.

The tricky part was removing the old glue without removing the bridge, which involves running sandpaper strips between the bridge and the top of the guitar where there's lift (Jim did it with the strings on and under tension) and then using a thin scraper to get the dried bits of old glue out.

When I picked up the guitar, Jim told me to watch for any future bridge lift. I did -- dutifully trying to pry a playing card under the edges of the bridge almost every time I picked up the guitar.

HIs fix held without a hint of failure for all the years I had that guitar -- and it may be still holding wherever it is now.

These days I know more then I did then, and the 12-strings I have are worth more, so I'd probably go with spending the extra money to have it done properly.

 

[AcornHouse]

AH is right -- it's not recommended.

But I did have it done by my (late) luthier Jim Mouradian. Jim was a legend in the Boston area, with decades of experience, and he allowed me to choose between the "recommended-but-more-expensive" option or the "cheap-and-maybe-less-effective" option. Being a cheapskate, and it being a guitar I had very little invested in (a Takamine Martin copy if memory serves), I went with the latter.

The tricky part was removing the old glue without removing the bridge, which involves running sandpaper strips between the bridge and the top of the guitar where there's lift (Jim did it with the strings on and under tension) and then using a thin scraper to get the dried bits of old glue out.

When I picked up the guitar, Jim told me to watch for any future bridge lift. I did -- dutifully trying to sticking a playing card under the edges of the bridge almost every time I picked up the guitar.

HIs fix held without a hint of failure for all the years I had that guitar -- and it may be still holding wherever it is now.

These days I know more then I did then, and the 12-strings I have are worth more, so I'd probably go with spending the extra money to have it done properly.

Yes, that’s the problem. Getting the old glue residue out and preparing the surface. I bet he spent as much time doing it that way as taking it off first, but didn’t charge you for it all.

 

[clipper]

Thank you all for the replies.

For the record, I was planning on removing the bridge, sanding, and re-gluing, not just filling in a gap (I didn't think that would be an option, frankly).

I think I'm going with the "do nothing" approach. It's a 45-year old guitar that's never been worked on, and I don't feel comfortable messing with it, frankly. It plays great, and I was looking for a player, anyway.

I don't really have the tools to properly measure the bridge lift, but here are some pics. I know Guild didn't glue right to the edge of the bridge, so I'm banking on this being just a natural affect of it's age, and not something that needs repair. I had it stored at 50% humidity and the strings loosened for a few weeks, then I tuned it up to E (I intend to keep it at e flat) for these pics. There was no change in the bridge lift when tuning up.

 

[clipper]

Welcome. Stick around - nice folks around here.

How severe is the bridge lift? Guilds are known for the back edges of the bridges not being glued down as a result of the way Guild finished tops. On several of my older Guilds, I can insert a business card anywhere from 1/16 to 1/8 inch at the bottom of the bridge and they've stayed that way for as long as I've had them.

Thanks for the welcome. I've been a lurker for... well, over 10 years, so I know there are a lot of good folks like yourself here.

I'm pretty sure the level of lift on this one is not going to cause serious damage, especially if I keep it tuned a half-step down.

 

[Stagefright]

I am big fan of the "do nothing" approach when practical. I was actually trained to ask myself that question when confronted by angry clients demanding action. Doing nothing was rarely the chosen response, but it helped put the perceived crisis into perspective.

 

[wileypickett]

From the side-view photo, it appears to me that the bridge has lifted well beyond what Guild allowed for in their finishing process.

If it was my guitar, I’d at least show it to a luthier. That wouldn’t cost you much, if anything. (Cynical LTGers have said, “Well of course a luthier is going to tell you it needs fixing — that’s how they make their living!” I’ve never found this to be the case however. The luthiers I’ve gone to — five or six over the past 40 years or so — have been pretty laid back — not a hustler among them. They’ve explained what’s happening, have made recommendations when I’ve asked for them, and have given me options going forward, including the option to do nothing.)

But it’s not my guitar — it’s yours and entirely your call. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[Neal]

That bridge needs to be taken completely off, old glue cleaned off, and re-glued/clamped with a bridge clamp and caul. If it were mine, I would slacken the string tension right now.

Most guitar makers these days, and that includes many high-dollar small shops, uses Titebond to glue down the bridge. Nothing wrong with it. It holds great and can be heated to release the bond. I'm willing to bet that Guild uses Titebond on the bridges of their Oxnard guitars.

Having said that, It is well worth the $100 to take it to a competent luthier and have the job done by a professional. That is, by far, a more important decision than what kind of glue to use. A pro will have the experience to remove the bridge without damaging the top or the finish, and the tools to properly clamp the bridge back on once it is cleaned up and reglued. A pro will also assess the bracing to ensure that nothing else is amiss, and glue whatever may be be loose that is contributing to bridge lift.

 

[GardMan]

I'm not an expert, but I'd agree with Neal... that bridge NEEDS to come off and be reglued. Given the amount of lift, and that it's got 12 strings pulling on it, I also would recommend loosening the strings until it can be repaired properly.

Sure, it MAY last that way for some time... but IF IT PULLS OFF, the damage done will likely cost much more to repair than a bridge reglue would cost now.