Heritage suing Gibson

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,784
Reaction score
1,184
Huh good read . I don't remember a lot about Heritage guitars but it seems their well known . 😊
 

walrus

Reverential Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
24,003
Reaction score
8,088
Location
Massachusetts
My '58 Gibson ES-225T is oblivious to all this legal wrangling... :apathy:

For a company that recently declared bankruptcy, they are spending a lot of money in legal fees. I may be in the minority, but I always thought over the years that any copycat guitar gave the original at least some brand recognition. i.e., a "Les Paul shape" guitar not made by Gibson still made everyone think of a Les Paul, which remained the "guitar you rally wanted". This is perhaps offset by their quality issues of the most recent years, but I still think it applies.

It seems like putting the money into making high quality guitars - every guitar they make - would be a better strategy.

walrus
 

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
You took the words right out of my mouth, walrus:

"How about Gibson just focus on making great guitars?" (from the TDPRI forum)
 

Cougar

Enlightened Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
5,378
Reaction score
3,103
Location
North Idaho
Guild Total
5
Heritage claims that this lawsuit is only being brought in an attempt to return relations between the brand and Gibson to the status quo that has existed for nearly three decades, and is seeking a declaratory judgement from the court that confirms it has not violated the settlement agreement or infringed on Gibson’s trademarks.

Well, it depends on the specifics of that 1991 Settlement Agreement, which is apparently "confidential."

Gibson was sold to hedge fund Kohlberg Kravis Roberts following its bankruptcy in 2018...

Sounds like Gibson is being a big bully to me....
 

Grassdog

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
550
Reaction score
118
Location
Cincinnati, OH
I cannot imagine being owned by a hedge fund would be good for an instrument manufacturer. I wonder how all those bondholders made out.
 

shihan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Messages
1,548
Reaction score
805
Location
Ventura CA
Being sold to a hedge fund is the death knell for Gibson. They just want to loot the value of the company before they cast it aside. Probably the lawsuits are part of this strategy. Poor Gibson. Why couldn’t some billionaire buy it as a prestige hobby?
 

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
14,025
Reaction score
6,644
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
I cannot imagine being owned by a hedge fund would be good for an instrument manufacturer. I wonder how all those bondholders made out.

And yet in many ways, it can't be any worse than what Henry J was doing to the company. There was a credible rumor that Yamaha was going to take over Gibson, and in retrospect it's a shame that didn't happen.
 

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
At least Heritage makes guitars that are worth the asking price.
 

Coop47

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2017
Messages
650
Reaction score
499
Location
Mass/RI
I played a really good Gibson J45 last week, the first time I've been impressed by a new Gibson in about 5 years. And then they go remind me why I plan never to buy from them again.
 

shihan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Messages
1,548
Reaction score
805
Location
Ventura CA
I’m an old timer, so I remember Gibson as an elite guitar maker. My ‘69 LPGT is a stellar instrument. Its sad to see them sunk so low.
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,308
Reaction score
12,052
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
And yet in many ways, it can't be any worse than what Henry J was doing to the company. There was a credible rumor that Yamaha was going to take over Gibson, and in retrospect it's a shame that didn't happen.
Sandy, I really have to agree with you on this point. What Yamaha has IN SPADES is what Gibson needs. Imagine what great guitars and strides the company would have made with that type of leadership and direction. As you say, it's a shame.......
 

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
14,025
Reaction score
6,644
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
Sandy, I really have to agree with you on this point. What Yamaha has IN SPADES is what Gibson needs. Imagine what great guitars and strides the company would have made with that type of leadership and direction. As you say, it's a shame.......

Agreed Tom. Yamaha is a great company that pretty much excels at everything they make regardless of price point, and Gibson could have really used a healthy dose of that kind of corporate culture.
 

evenkeel

Senior Member
Silver Supporting
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
1,539
Reaction score
11
Gibson has never been a model of consistency and good management. Just the serial number non-sense alone is a good example of Gibson's rather unique ways of doing things. Over the years Gibson has used eight different numbering systems. And.... just to further muddy things they have repeated systems/sequences. A SS# number from 63-69 can duplicate ss#'s from 73 to 79. Then they change names on a model, then go back to the original. Guitars with square shoulders got the same name as earlier round shoulder versions. And we've not touched the plastic bridge and double bracing years. They have made some great guitars. I have a J-15 that's a great guitar for not a lot of $$. The WM series, another winner. Even in the bad old Norlin years they did make some good guitars. But consistent, no way.
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,715
Reaction score
8,848
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
Gibson has never been a model of consistency and good management. Just the serial number non-sense alone is a good example of Gibson's rather unique ways of doing things. Over the years Gibson has used eight different numbering systems. And.... just to further muddy things they have repeated systems/sequences. A SS# number from 63-69 can duplicate ss#'s from 73 to 79. Then they change names on a model, then go back to the original. Guitars with square shoulders got the same name as earlier round shoulder versions. And we've not touched the plastic bridge and double bracing years. They have made some great guitars. I have a J-15 that's a great guitar for not a lot of $$. The WM series, another winner. Even in the bad old Norlin years they did make some good guitars. But consistent, no way.

Of course an awful lot of what you are saying could also apply to Guild.
 

evenkeel

Senior Member
Silver Supporting
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
1,539
Reaction score
11
Of course an awful lot of what you are saying could also apply to Guild.
Very true re: ss#'s and factory changes. But even with all those changes Guild management has, with few exceptions, focused on building good guitars. Musicians and experienced guitar folks had key roles in the company. So they kept the core values of the company on point. Gibson during the Norlin years for example made lots of bad decisions re: bracing, plastic bridges, large bridge plates solely to reduce costs and limit warranty work. In recent years Gibson decided to be a "lifestyle" brand. Again losing the focus on musicians and guitar.
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,715
Reaction score
8,848
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
But even with all those changes Guild management has, with few exceptions, focused on building good guitars.

Agreed, Perhaps a key difference is that Guild, by being smaller, did not attract owners who were more interested in making money than in making guitars. Indeed, IMO, the events that triggered the lawsuit that started the thread are typical of investment firms that are trying to maximize their return and don't know/care about or understand the underlying business.
 

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,253
Reaction score
1,858
Very true re: ss#'s and factory changes. But even with all those changes Guild management has, with few exceptions, focused on building good guitars. Musicians and experienced guitar folks had key roles in the company. So they kept the core values of the company on point. Gibson during the Norlin years for example made lots of bad decisions re: bracing, plastic bridges, large bridge plates solely to reduce costs and limit warranty work. In recent years Gibson decided to be a "lifestyle" brand. Again losing the focus on musicians and guitar.

I've found both Gibson & Guild guitars to be what works best for me since the '70s, and have owned many of both brands (as well as a number of Martins along the way). What I care about is a guitar that's satisfying in my hands, based on tone, playability, and other less meaningful considerations like aesthetics. Who's operating these companies has periodically been an unfortunate mess in both cases. But what matters is that on the shop floor, there were workers trying to build the best guitar they could - while being given different parameters at different points in time.

When you look back, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Guild has historically had it's guitar-focused act together any more so than Gibson. Guild was sold to Avnet, a corporate entity, in the mid '60s. Did Avnet have good guitar making foremost on it's mind? Of course not. Fender was sold to CBS in the '60s as well. And Gibson was sold to Norlin in '69, with the same basic outcome in all cases. These were not guitar-musician oriented companies. They all had profit as their central focus, and unfortunately for them, the import instrument boom hit at just about the same time. By the mid '70s, they were all (including Martin) sucking wind trying to find their place in a market becoming dominated by good quality Japanese imports. On the acoustic side, the big three were all overbuilding their instruments. All had large rosewood bridgeplates & a beefed up build (the neckblock on my '76 Guild G-37 is big enough to build a tiny-house all on it's own!).

Gibson's plastic bridge? Yes, a stupid idea, but it actually debuted well before the Norlin era in 1962. In fact McCartney's Texan originally had an adjustable plastic bridge. As goofy as it was, this bridge (in it's adjustable version only), created a metallic-overtoned sound that is quite unique & desirable to some (including myself). I currently happen to have one of these on a '66 Epiphone Cortez (Gibson B-25 clone), and it remains in perfect structural condition. I've also owned two others in the past. Anyway, guitars employing this bridge essentially remained the same as earlier models in the remainder their overall build until 1967, when a rosewood bridge returned but beefier build traits began working their way into production (again, pre-Norlin). When Norlin did actually take over in 1970, they initiated wholesale changes that removed the last vestiges of Gibson's historic acoustic platforms, and indeed, attempted to beef up the overall build even further. Meanwhile, Guild's overall build got heavier in the '70s, as did Martin's (to a lesser extent).

By the time the '80s rolled around, both Gibson & Guild were mostly on their deathbeds. It took Henry J. & partners to rescue Gibson & begin what eventually became a very successful turnaround. Unfortunately, Henry got greedy & engaged in company-destructive decision-making that would lead to his eventual downfall. Meanwhile, Guild went through ownership changes including the short-lived Gruhn era, and could never find a strong footing in the marketplace. When Fender took over in '95, I once again had high hopes for the Guild brand. But bean-counter thinking ruled the day, and we saw the ill-fated transitions from Westerly to Corona to Tacoma to New Hartford - along with Fender ending production on USA-made Guild electrics altogether.

By the time Fender had totally given up on Guild and sold it to Cordoba in 2014, Gibson had regained it's footing in the industry, but Henry was about to implode the company, mainly through his numerous industry-related acquisitions that didn't pan out, and his I-know-best, one-man-decision-making style. Ironically, when Henry's management style drove Ren away from Gibson to Guild, it was probably one of the best things that could have happened to Guild in many decades.

Now with Cordoba trying to resurrect Guild acoustics, they had the perfect person on board to build a factory from scratch in Oxnard. Ren had already done it once in Bozeman, and he did it again in California. He didn't stay long, but he put everything in place to give Cordoba a fair shot at giving USA-built Guilds a future. In the meantime, Gibson has now undergone another ownership transition, but continues building both acoustics and electrics in the USA. As always, you need to sift through them to find the best ones, but they are there, and overall they've built a ton of stellar instruments during the last few decades.

My hope of course is that both Guild and Gibson will remain stable companies for the long term. Lord knows, by now they both should have learned enough about what not to do!
 
Last edited:
Top