HELP! Neck Reset on a Vintage Guild D44

Br1ck

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
1,681
Reaction score
1,423
Location
San Jose, Ca
Jerry Rosa is a guy I listen to a lot. He is one of those against doing resets for the most part. His solution is usually a large bridgeplate and regluing the bridge, and over half the time there is a problem with the X bracing. He'll clamp the top flat, then glue the braces, bridgeplate and bridge back on. But he knows it likely will spring back some, but not enough to still need the neck reset. My D 35 had no such issues, the neck had just moved over time, and someone had shaved the bridge. Yuck.

Now removing bridge plates comes with it's own challenges. Suffice to say, old guitars are like old cars. We know we are going to rebuild or replace every part on the 74 MG midget over time. Don't play on the field of vintage unless willing to deal with issues. It's more a question of passion than thrift. This is made difficult by relating cost to value in a dollars and cents sense. You are going to pay dearly for a 60s Martin D 18 these days, and likely spend money on it. Someone will pay you more. No so much with Guilds.....yet.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
2
Reaction score
9
Guild Total
1
Thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I really appreciate them all. Back story:
In 1966, I purchased a first-year 1965 D44 from Columbus Folk Music Center. I was going to Ohio State. It was a great guitar but I sold it to buy a Martin D28. Fast forward to 2015, an I found the guitar I currently own. It needed a neck reset when I bought it but I didn't care. These guitars are made of pearwood, a fine sounding hardwood. Somewhat between maple and rosewood. I have about 19 guitars so I've not been in a hurry to repair it but, at 77, I want to get it running. It even has its original case. Thanks all!

guild.jpg
 

JohnG.

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
180
Reaction score
56
Location
NJ
Guild Total
3
Wow awesome guitar, i would send it to tom jacobs for neck reset. He has done a 67 d40 for me and it is excellent. I just posted a want ad here for a d44 so if you want to sell im here, or maybe trade for the 67 d40.
 

HeyMikey

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2018
Messages
5,500
Reaction score
4,841
Location
MA
Guild Total
9
Any good luthier worth their salt will explore the least evasive options first. If ultimately it needs a reset then so be it. Don’t fear it. I sent my F312 to Tom convinced it needed a reset. He inspected it worked some other areas, got the action low and convinced me to not do a reset yet. That’s what a good luthier will do for you.
 
Last edited:

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,254
Reaction score
1,858
Jerry Rosa is a guy I listen to a lot. He is one of those against doing resets for the most part. His solution is usually a large bridgeplate and regluing the bridge, and over half the time there is a problem with the X bracing.

I will readily admit that I have only watched three of this fellow's videos, and perhaps he has shared some useful information over the course of time. But based on what I saw, I came away of the opinion that I would never let him anywhere near a vintage or valued instrument of mine.

A bit later, I came across a thread in the UMGF Technical Info section titled, "So this is how to remove the top from an old Martin (Rosa String Works), Parts 1-4." If you do a search for Jerry Rosa within the Technical Info section, it will quickly pop up. As I discovered, there are a whole lot of folks out there who share concerns similar to mine. Be sure to read all six pages of commentary. And elsewhere on a different forum, an individual who is highly respected for his knowledge regarding WWII-era Gibsons shared concerns as to work that was done on a rare vintage piece by Rosa String Works, that now cannot be corrected.

Anyone considering work by this shop should seek out all available information before proceeding.
 

Charlie Bernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
1,580
Reaction score
1,181
Location
Augusta, Maine, USA
I hope I live long enough to see the neck reset craze come to an end. I'll never understand breaking one of the strongest joints on the assembly to solve a problem elsewhere on the guitar. . . .
Good point. I had one of those seventies Martins with terrible action, and lowering the saddle completely solved it.

On the other hand, my first Guild, a late '60s or early '70s D-35, had action so high that nothing short of a reset would have solved it. Sounded great, but it was only good for cowboy chords. At the time, a reset would've cost $300, which was about what I paid for the guitar. So I sold it.*

So I think Tommy just needs to get it to an honest and capable luthier who will tell him what work actually has to be done.

------------------------------------------------

* If only I'd know then what I know now!
 

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
486
Good point. I had one of those seventies Martins with terrible action, and lowering the saddle completely solved it.

On the other hand, my first Guild, a late '60s or early '70s D-35, had action so high that nothing short of a reset would have solved it. Sounded great, but it was only good for cowboy chords. At the time, a reset would've cost $300, which was about what I paid for the guitar. So I sold it.*

So I think Tommy just needs to get it to an honest and capable luthier who will tell him what work actually has to be done.

------------------------------------------------

* If only I'd know then what I know now!

The 70s Martin didn't have a neck angle problem, it just needed to be properly set up. Many people who buy guitars don't do this, but they should. There is no reason to fight a guitar with terrible action when a set up (which is not) expensive) can address, and make playing the guitar far easier. The set up must be done by a competent luthier/technician.
 

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
486
I will readily admit that I have only watched three of this fellow's videos, and perhaps he has shared some useful information over the course of time. But based on what I saw, I came away of the opinion that I would never let him anywhere near a vintage or valued instrument of mine.

A bit later, I came across a thread in the UMGF Technical Info section titled, "So this is how to remove the top from an old Martin (Rosa String Works), Parts 1-4." If you do a search for Jerry Rosa within the Technical Info section, it will quickly pop up. As I discovered, there are a whole lot of folks out there who share concerns similar to mine. Be sure to read all six pages of commentary. And elsewhere on a different forum, an individual who is highly respected for his knowledge regarding WWII-era Gibsons shared concerns as to work that was done on a rare vintage piece by Rosa String Works, that now cannot be corrected.

Anyone considering work by this shop should seek out all available information before proceeding.

I would be in full agreement with the statement regarding Rosa String Works. I have seen a number of his videos, and can point out a number of things that I do not agree with, some of which would irreversibly damage a guitar. They would involve the repeated use of epoxy and cyanoacrylate glues inappropriately, but are not limited to that.

I know that finding a good luthier is not easy in some places, but allowing a "bad" luthier to work on your guitar is a lot worse in terms of consequences.
 

Charlie Bernstein

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
1,580
Reaction score
1,181
Location
Augusta, Maine, USA
The 70s Martin didn't have a neck angle problem, it just needed to be properly set up. Many people who buy guitars don't do this, but they should. There is no reason to fight a guitar with terrible action when a set up (which is not) expensive) can address, and make playing the guitar far easier. The set up must be done by a competent luthier/technician.
It's true that not all of them did, but mine did. It wasn't bad enough to want a reset, but the saddle was as low as they can go. The early seventies was a sketchy era for Martin, which is why they often go for so much less than earlier and later editions.

Conventional wisdom might not be true, but I've heard from many believable quarters that early seventies Martins are notorious for mispositioned bridges, bindings that loosened, pickguards that lifted, weak bridge plates, and poorly set necks.

Mine (a real nice D-28) had all the above except for the bridge, which was placed correctly, and the bridge plate, which seemed to hold its own admirably.

PS -

After writing that, I found this article: 1970s Martins
 
Last edited:

Neal

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
1,659
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Luthiers tread a fine line when building a really good-sounding guitar, making compromises the whole way between optimal tone and optimal structural stability. Too much structure? The guitar sounds like crap. Too little structure? The guitar bellies up, the top deforms, and the action becomes unplayable.

I have a 1931 12-fret Gibson that is so light that a stiff breeze would carry it away. There is a pronounced belly behind the bridge, the result of early efforts by Gibson to make a flattop with steel strings that would compete head to head with the 12-fret Martins of the same year (which also have the same tendency to belly up). It has had at least one neck reset in its life, and probably needs another one right now.

I also have the 1934 version of same Gibson, but with 14 frets to the body. In just a few short years, Gibson realized that they had under-built the earlier guitars and, thus, the '34 is a little heavier, but with no deformation of the top after nearly 90 years, and it shows no evidence of ever having a neck reset.

The '31 is a little more responsive. Whether that is due to the 12-fret configuration, the lighter build, a different luthier putting it together, different wood, or all of the above is an open question. But it, and every single late '20's and early '30's 12-fretter I have ever seen, all have a belly that has thrown the original geometry out of whack.
 

Br1ck

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
1,681
Reaction score
1,423
Location
San Jose, Ca
How many neck resets have any of you done? Fret jobs? Crack repairs? Instruments built from scratch? Instruments coming to you in fifteen pieces? Jerry Rosa will tell you, there are many ways to do things. If you disagree with him, fine. He really doesn't care. I know he drives hide glue folks crazy. So what. He also does not take in instruments any more, unless you walk them into his shop. So when you all have forty years experience, I'll take your views seriously. It's akin to watching a hundred guitar videos and then saying a D 28 is the best guitar.

If you go to frets.com, you will see instances when Frank Ford uses epoxy for a cheap repair on an inexpensive guitar. I have too. Followed Frank's advise for the same fix. It worked fine. I can't really remember an instance Jerry Rosa used epoxy. I've watched pretty much all his videos for around four years. There is not a whole lot of money in his neck of the woods. He gets instruments playing again for the least amount of money he can. He was swamped with work and guarantied it 100%.
 

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
486
Br1ck, it seems that I have ruffled some feathers. So be it. I don't care who or what Jerry Rosa has done, or the number of youtube videos he has made (many of which I have seen, from whence comes my issues with the way he does things). There are accepted practises in guitar repair. Those practices were NOT just whims of people trying to cut corners, improve their profit margins, or save time. They ARE practices that have been developed over time, work well, and help extend the life of the instrument, as well as maximize the tone of the guitar over that extended life span. The fact that Jerry Rosa decides to do things his way is fine, and much respect on that part. But, when he uses cyanoacrylate to repair nitro finished guitar, as one example, he crosses a line that I do not find acceptable. Not that it doesn't repair the problem, because it does, but because repairing it properly really isn't a bigger effort, and it is the right thing to do. Somebody called doing a neck reset a "craze" or a "fad". IT ISN'T, and I don't care which luthier you are a fan of. Neck resets used to be a lot more violent than the current steam or hot wire methods, and they should be reviewed before coming up with statementst like "breaking the strongest joint on the guitar". First of all, the dovetail neck joint may or many not be the strongest joint in the guitar (the kerfing joints may be as strong or stronger, but not really part of this discussion), but eve if it is, has it occurred to anybody to ask "Why is there a joint at the neck/body join" in the first place? It is, in fact designed to be there because necks will need to be reset. When necks are not expected to need a reset, there is no neck joint (see the Spanish Foot neck block as used in classical guitars). Not only is it there because of an anticipated future neck joint, the dovetail neck joint, and to a lesser degree the bolt neck and mortise and tennon neck joints are also designed to allow adjustment in multiple planes. And I didn't say to never use epoxy or cyanoacylate, just don't jump to it as a first resort, both are to be used as last resorts, not as a standard, everyday, routine, repair. if another finish repair is needed in that area, using cyanoacylate previously will make that repair impossible.

As for the whole "How many neck resets have any of you done? Fret jobs? Crack repairs? Instruments built from scratch? Instruments coming to you in fifteen pieces?" I have not done any. I never will due to eyesight and manual dexterity issues. I have however, been witness to multiple dozen neck resets, and not only observed, but actively asked questions, and had them generously answered by both long experience repair people, and by hand builders. They not only have answered questions (many of which they considered dumb) most generously, but found that on occasion, my dumb questions did help them realize what they were doing by rote (or automatically). They also offered to let me help make new body moulds, showed my how they tap tune a guitar top, bend a side, and the effect of adding finish to the guitar over multiple layers. Am I a qualified luthier? No, not in the least. Do I understand a bit about how guitars are made and what are the best repair practices? Yes. Do I know more than Jerry Rosa? No, probably not. Even with that, I know some of the stuff that he does is extremely questionable.

You say you know your way about Frets.com. Go see what Frank Ford would say about some of the stuff that Jerry Rosa does. Find a good local luthier and ask about what is shown on his videos, and he will tell you. Do not only watch one Youtube channel and automatically assume that what the person is doing, or saying, it always correct.

If you weint to see a really good luthier work on sometimes very difficult repairs, watch the Youtube channel of twoodfrd. If you watch him, and compare what he does to what Jerry Rosa does, then start asking some real questions
 
Last edited:

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,254
Reaction score
1,858
How many neck resets have any of you done? Fret jobs? Crack repairs? Instruments built from scratch? Instruments coming to you in fifteen pieces? Jerry Rosa will tell you, there are many ways to do things. If you disagree with him, fine.
The collective experience of posters here is a non-factor. The issue is what you just stated - this guy doesn’t care what anyone else thinks, and applies his pet techniques to vintage or valued pieces, without regard to altering tonal characteristics or maintaining originality - in particular, when the repair could have been done in a much less invasive way if done via tried and true best practice methods. Rather than restoring an instrument as near to it’s original specs as possible, his solution, whether it be an old Kay, Harmony, or a vintage early '50s Gibson worth five figures if repaired properly, is to just slap one of those oversize padauk bridgeplates on there. In my book, this borders on quackery.

Brick, as I suggested in my previous post, I would hope you review the thread I referenced above. He may be providing a valuable service to the people in his area who just want to get an old guitar up and running as cheaply as possible, but when it comes to working on quality vintage instruments or other valuable pieces, Rosa is a train wreck. And his forty years of experience, imho, doesn't amount to anything worth crowing about if it involves forty years of corner cutting techniques.

Referencing the Gibson I mentioned above, John Thomas, author of Kalamazoo Gals, felt compelled to offer the names of other luthiers who might be able to undo some of Rosa's damage - but more importantly, these individuals would have treated that instrument with the respect and TLC it deserved from the outset. Sadly, the instrument can never be fully restored as it might have been if placed in the right hands.
 

Br1ck

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
1,681
Reaction score
1,423
Location
San Jose, Ca
I only will restate that there is room in any endeavor for one's own experience to guide one's own practice. When you dogmatically adhere to one way of thought in any belief or practice, it becomes constricting to one's own ability to reason. If someone gets an instrument repaired by anyone, picks it up and is happy with the result, what else really matters? Certainly if I had an instrument worth tens of thousands of dollars, I'd take it to an acknowledged expert, but I'd do that more for valuation than anything. My local repair guy is competent enough to work on anything.

The violin world is an interesting place to shop. Reputation certainly adds value, but a good string dealer will not tell you who made the violin you are checking out. He'll hand you a half dozen within several thousands one way or the other. Unless you are shopping millions, you likely would not recognize the builder anyway. I've been a part of this process several times with cellos and violas for my daughters, in the $20,000 range. The most expensive instruments did not win, and we had no clue at the time which they were. So I'd say all the importance is how something feels and sounds to you when playing it. The general consensus about what should sound and feel good to you is irrelevant.

The one instrument that grabbed me from the first strum, shook me to the core and refused to let me walk away has a plywood bridge plate. Ask the fifty best luthiers in the country about that, and I would not be surprised if all of them said that sucked, including Jerry Rosa. He has said as much. Then likewise the adjustable bridge. How many would say a 1 5/8" nut is a good idea? Yet to me, the guitar is compelling. Still, would I buy one unseen? No. Would I expect anyone to based on the overwhelming opinion of experts? No. But denying ones own experience by deferring to expert opinion is folly. So if a repairman makes a customer happy by whatever means, I'm not going to deny that customer's experience. That is all I'm saying.

My luthier will not do a setup that does not include a fret level. Period. At first I thought he was nuts. Plenty of people do. But whenever I needed fretwork, my guitars came back playing exceptionally well. I took in my Guild recently and this same guy said I was nuts, the guitar was fine. But in the end I told him I could feel the difference and with a well, its your money attitude, did the work. It came back like I remembered it after a refret six years before. So I've learned there is nothing much that can't be an exception. If fifty people have the same opinion, I'm not going to automatically follow suit. In fact it makes me more wary than ever. Guild is a number one victim of that.

A good friend is in love with K&K pickups. In the end we just agreed to disagree. Guess what? We still like each other. My last word on the subject. It's been fun. No one died.
 

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,254
Reaction score
1,858
The one instrument that grabbed me from the first strum, shook me to the core and refused to let me walk away has a plywood bridge plate. Ask the fifty best luthiers in the country about that, and I would not be surprised if all of them said that sucked, including Jerry Rosa. He has said as much. Then likewise the adjustable bridge. How many would say a 1 5/8" nut is a good idea? Yet to me, the guitar is compelling. Still, would I buy one unseen? No. Would I expect anyone to based on the overwhelming opinion of experts? No. But denying ones own experience by deferring to expert opinion is folly. So if a repairman makes a customer happy by whatever means, I'm not going to deny that customer's experience. That is all I'm saying.

On this we are in complete agreement. I have long advocated that guitar generalizations should be taken as resource information to be considered, but should not be taken as absolute truths. I know you are referring to your mid-‘60s Gibson Kalamazoo-built Epiphone Texan, and I have had a shared experience with three instruments from the same era, including this current offering, that ups the ante with the universally luthier-maligned plastic bridge & adjustable ceramic saddle (still 100% structurally stable after 56 years):
67E08D5B-FE8E-4835-B7AF-B9053EA323E9.jpeg

This complete outlier of traditional best practices produces a metallic-overtoned sound that I crave, and it’s a tone that I’ve only found in instruments having this bridge/saddle arrangement. So yes, I do understand your point. Each instrument should be assessed on it’s own unique merits, and the owner’s preferences will, in the end, rule the day.

But my concern here is this: In Rosa’s world, is the customer being given the information to make a fully informed decision, with options on how to proceed with repairs? When an instrument of significant value comes through the door, an experienced, professional, and ethical luthier should fully inform the customer of what he/she has in hand, and how various repairs might impact the instrument’s tonal characteristics and value. Does the owner want the typical low-buck, get-it-running Rosa approach, even if it might significantly impact the guitar’s value, or do they want to pursue a restorative approach that maximizes & preserves originality and market value? Is the owner given the necessary facts to make a well informed choice, or does the guitar just get handed over, for Rosa to pursue his favorite short cuts?

I will slightly amend an earlier comment of mine: Anyone considering repairs by Rosa String Works should seek out all available information about their instrument before proceeding, and referrals for a qualified second opinion.
 
Last edited:

Heath

Member
Joined
May 29, 2019
Messages
444
Reaction score
558
One of my favorite guitars, and to my ears -one- of the best sounding I’ve owned is my all laminate 1971 Yamaha FG-180. Apparently Yamaha used all tone woods in their laminate bodys. To keep even remotely on topic, this has had a neck reset.
 

Attachments

  • B2AB39C3-976F-411D-810C-79E614793C15.jpeg
    B2AB39C3-976F-411D-810C-79E614793C15.jpeg
    684.3 KB · Views: 87
Last edited:

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
486
Br1ck:

Thinking I was overly critical of Jerry Rosa, and Rosa String Works, I took the time to go to Youtube, and did a search on Rosa String Works. The first video was this one:



I watched the video from end to end, all 58+ minutes worth. To be honest, if this was my own 00-18, and I have no Martin guitars, nor am I overly fond of Martins (I respect them and their history, but do not pray at the Church of Martin), I would have been in jail had I seen what he did to that guitar. The amount of damage inflicted to that guitar is totally and absolutely unacceptable. He put his spatula/knife through both the top and the side of the guitar, sawed the fingerboard extension off, and then he says that he can repair the damage so that it is almost invisible. Truth is, whether it is visible or not, he has damaged the guitar, and in my opinion, while performing a totally unnecessary operation (taking the top of the guitar off) in the first place. I know it is only a 00-18, and probably not that valuable, but even it was a far eastern plywood junk guitar, I still would found this work to be unacceptable.

All he had to so was to re-glue the top to the sides where it had separated, and removed as much of the added wood and toothpicks as possible through the sound hole, and leave it at that. Even if he didn't get all of the toothpicks off, or all of the hide glue, the guitar would have still been far better off than his removing the top, and the damage that he caused.

No self-respecting luthier likes to take off the back, or top, without a compelling reason. He had no such reason to do what he did. The added extra bracing would have come out easily through the sound hole. The tootpicks may or may not have, but their contribution and that of the smeared all over the place hide glue towards the tone of the guitar would not have been that high. Better to leave well enough alone, and just re-glued the top to the side at the separation. Nobody removes tops and or backs without reason because when you do, it is very rare, on older guitars that the sides will be exactly in the same place when you try and put the guitar back together again, so you end up with sides that are too far in or too far out from the edge of the guitar top or back. You then have to find a way to get those mated up properly, and that is a giant can of worms which is why luthiers avoid doing this whenever there is any other way of repairing a guitar. I am not saying you can always avoid it, but in this case, you certainly could have.

And I did not cherry pick this video, this was the first guitar repair video that came up on the Youtube search.
 
Last edited:

wileypickett

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,989
Reaction score
4,546
Location
Cambridge, MA
I stopped at the 19:48 mark when he put the blade of his spatuala through the top trying to separate it from the end block. Tough to watch.
 
Top