Fantastic M-75 Aristocrat demo and question about the pickups

hoyt54

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I've been on the fence about buying a NS Aristocrat for a couple years now since I haven't found one in person to try out close to home. I scope YouTube for demo videos probably once or twice a month. I have to say, this is my new favorite demo of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=331LzF0cJUg

I play a mix of modern Christian worship music, indie, alternative, americana, and ambient styles. My current guitars are a Jazzmaster with AV65 pickups, a custom build guitar with TV Jones T-90 pickups, and a 72 Thinline Tele reissue with the wide range humbuckers. How do you guys feel the Aristocrat's pickups fare compared to Jazzmaster and T90/P90 pickups? And is there a lot of 60 cycle hum? Finally, is it hum-cancelling in the middle position (RW/RP I guess?)

Thanks!
 

Quantum Strummer

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The Aristo's repro Franz pickups are kind of a combo of a medium-wind P-90's midrange girth & output level and a JM's high end sizzle. They've got a lot of poke. They're not hum-cancelling in the middle position. The particular set in my Aristocrat seem to hum a little more than the P-90s I have at comparable volume levels, but I think that's due to their strong treble response. If you get along with Jazzmaster p'ups & P-90s it won't be an issue.

-Dave-
 
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Zelja

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I have an NS M-75 & didn't get along with the original pickups. Neck too woofy & bridge a bit nasty in the highs and high mids (I guess) for me. Got a rewound & magnet replacement done & really dig it now. Also got the bridge pickup tapped to get 2 sounds out of it. I have mentioned it in other threads previously.
 

parker_knoll

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the pups put me off getting one of the new X175Bs. In my case I'd need to factor in another £100 for a rewind.
 

hoyt54

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Thanks guys, I appreciate the info. I'll give it some more consideration.
 

Zelja

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the pups put me off getting one of the new X175Bs. In my case I'd need to factor in another £100 for a rewind.
Like anything you have to try them for your self - one man's meat etc.

I don't think Walter Broes liked them either but he is a real vintage Franz aficionado and has a preference for lower wind Franz's I believe. Others don't appear to have a problem with them & I think the exact same pickups were put into the US built Patriarch series guitars. John Mayer had a US Aristocrat I believe, so...:topsy_turvy:
 

Walter Broes

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I don't think Walter Broes liked them either but he is a real vintage Franz aficionado and has a preference for lower wind Franz's I believe. Others don't appear to have a problem with them
You believe right. I spent so much time with old Franz pickups that are thinner and twangier sounding that I was a little dissapointed with the new ones. I know plenty of guys, some blues/jump blues players, and a Rockabilly guy who like them just fine stock, and sound pretty good with them.

On the NS 175 I have right now, I have old Franz pickups. And I had my luthier buddy move the lead pickup to where it is on an old guitar - closer to the bridge. Much, much better for what I do, now I getting the twang and treble from the middle switch position that I'm used to.
 

DThomasC

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Disassembling a NS soapbar Franz repro and a dogear Franz from a 1958 T-100, the repro seems like they got most things right at least visually. Obviously there are things like material properties that I can't verify.

What are clearly not the same are the magnets. The vintage magnets are rough-cast and much weaker. The rough-cast might not matter much in this case because they do have the one edge that contacts the keeper ground smooth. That whole issue might sound silly, but experience has shown that it does matter. As for them being weaker, they might have started out strong or not, it really doesn't matter. If we want the new pickups to sound like the old pickups then we need them to match the properties of the old pickups today. Making the new pickups sound the way the old ones did when they were new is something different.

Another thing that's different is that the repros have more turns of wire. Maybe that's because most musicians today would be disappointed with the low output of vintage pickups? Whatever, nobody said you have to like what other people like.

So, I'm thinking it should be possible to bring the NS pickups closer to vintage sound in two simple steps. The first is replacing the magnets with something closer to vintage materials and strength. This is easy to do at home and doesn't even require unsoldering the pickup. Anyone that feels comfortable with a screwdriver can do it themselves. Where to get the magnets? They're the same size as those used by Gibson in their PAF and P-90 in the 40s and 50s, and every copy since then, so there are almost too many options available. You could even degauss the existing magnets with a strong neodymium magnet and put them back in.

It's both interesting and frustrating that Guild claims the repro Franz's use alnico 5 magnets in the dogear pups (X-175), and alnico 2 in the soapbar pickups (M-75). This might actually explain why (if?) NS X-175 owners are generally less satisfied than NS M-75 owners. I would expect the A5 magnets to result in a hotter pickup with a sharper top end. The A2 magnets by comparison should be smother and more vintage sounding. Not sure what's in my vintage Franz or why Guild chose to make them two different ways.

Anyway, the second way to bring NS pups closer to vintage would be to simply remove some of the windings. This is not for the faint of heart, but it doesn't require any special tools either. I've wound pickups, and unwound many of them before trying again. I know I can do it.

So, I have a 'spare' soapbar bridge pup intended for an M-75. I bought it on eBay a long time ago when they were really cheap. I will replace the magnets, or maybe just degauss them, and remove some windings to bring it closer to vintage. I'll then try it out in my NS Aristocrat. But I don't have enough real experience with vintage Franz's, especially in Aristocrats, so while I'm sure I will have changed it, maybe for the better (whatever that means) I won't be able to compare it to vintage. Is there anyone here that I could send the pickup to that could tell if it's a process worth carrying out?

I can try it on some dogear pups from a NS X-175 as well, but I'm not ready to pay $95 each for new ones. If someone has a pair that they've pulled and replaced with something else I might be willing to pay $80/pair for those. Or send them to me and I'll 'fix' them and send them back to you at no charge so long as you can provide a useful review and comparison to vintage for the communities sake.
 

Zelja

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Agree, magnets have an effect as does number of winds but wind pattern also seems to be a large factor as well.

The other issue with the Franz pickup is that there were some significant variances in them down the years. My X50 has a 7K DC resistance but has narrower magnets, My CE-100D has around 5.5 K resistance and more typical magnets size.

When it came to getting my NS M75 pickups done I wasn't really worried about vintage specs, but rather what I wanted them to sound like in the particular guitar. The neck ended up having narrower A5 (I think) magnets while the bridge had wider magnets, 1 x A2 & 1 x A5, I believe. I also bought another NS reissue pickup & had it rewound for the bridge posn of the CE0100D. Very happy with the results. Tapped col in both bridge PUs to provide more flavours (vintage/brighter & creamier). I had Zhangbucker do the rewinds as I like his P90s (his was the 5th P90 I tried on a Hamer guitar before being satisfied).

Great offer on the rewind DTC! Very generous.
 

Quantum Strummer

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I have to admit I don't much care how close the repros are to the originals (which, as noted, vary). How do they sound in my guitar through my gear? That's what I care about. The p'ups in my Aristocrat aren't that hot in terms of winds—don't remember offhand the DC resistance readings—but they are strong & bright. I like that. A couple things to note are that I use flatwound strings, 11 gauge Thomastik Jazz Swings, and have replaced the TOM-type bridge with a fixed intonation rosewood one. So my guitar is inherently a little darker than an off-the-rack NS M-75.

-Dave-
 

Guildadelphia

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My only exposure to the tone of vintage Franz pu's was the 10 minutes I spent playing a vintage Guild (that was in pretty funky shape) under poor conditions at a noisy GC. Otherwise, I'm limited to seeing the Paladins live several times, their CD's and Walter Broes fine playing on You Tube. I think you will be very happy with the tone of the current Franz pu's. I have a Newark St X175B and I think the stock repro Franz pu's sound great in their own right. I get Walter's issue regarding the position of the bridge pu on the X175B, however the the bridge pu is closer to the bridge on the NS Aristocrat so not an issue. As far as tone, pu balance, etc is concerned, don't be afraid to play around with the volume and tone controls on the guitar and amp, that's what they are there for. The Franz repros on my X175B respond very well to adjustments with the volume and tone pots. The other simple rule of thumb is to remember that 50 year old guitars with 50 year old wood, lacquer, and pu magnets are gonna sound different than a brand new guitar....even if the brand new guitar was a literal carbon copy of the original. Obviously there is stuff that can be done to get closer to those tones as illustrated by Walter and others but I wouldn't sweat it. The NS models that come w/ Franz pu's (Aristocrat, X175) are great guitars that defy their price and usually need nothing beyond being set up to your preference.
 
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