Factory installed strap button on NH Guilds

fronobulax

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This thread is not supposed to be a debate about whether a factory installed strap button is a good or bad thing. Neither is it supposed to be about where the strap button should be, regardless of who installed it. Those discussions are currently raging elsewhere.

It is a simple question of facts. Which New Hartford Guild acoustic guitar models come from the factory in 2012 with installed strap buttons?

I would have said, based upon 2011, that any model equipped with factory installed electronics had a strap button and any model without electronics did not. However in the previously mentioned discussions someone seems to be claiming otherwise. I am asking so that I can update my understanding or politely point out that they are misinformed :wink:

Thanks.
 

chazmo

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I'm not sure the answer is as simple as you're looking for, Jamie.

But, my 2010 F-212XL Standard has no strap button.
 

bluesypicky

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IIRC, (unless I dreamed it) at LMGII, we were asked by the Guild staff during either the factory tour or the Q&A, about our preferred location for the strap button.... which might indicate that prior to this point, none was installed on their acoustics my dear Watson. :eek:
 

fronobulax

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My understanding from LMG II and buying a 2011 F-30 Traditional is that the only factory strap buttons were on instruments that shipped with electronics. (And I remember watching people glue in the extra block of wood that anchored the button). But since there is a claim in another thread that you can't buy a new Guild without the darn strap button in the wrong place I'm trying to determine whether that claim is misinformed or things have changed since LMG III.
 

killdeer43

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Here's a question that I don't think I've heard/read before when this issue has come up in the past.
Does that "extra block of wood" that's glued in to anchor the strap button affect the sound in any way? If so, why on earth would they do that? :?

I've always thought that the acoustics/projection/quality of sound of a guitar would be somewhat affected by anything inside the body of the guitar. To reiterate, why add an "extra block of wood?" :?

Anyone?

Curious Joe
 

fronobulax

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killdeer43 said:
Here's a question that I don't think I've heard/read before when this issue has come up in the past.
Does that "extra block of wood" that's glued in to anchor the strap button affect the sound in any way? If so, why on earth would they do that? :?

I've always thought that the acoustics/projection/quality of sound of a guitar would be somewhat affected by anything inside the body of the guitar. To reiterate, why add an "extra block of wood?" :?

Anyone?

Curious Joe

Well it is on the side and not the top. Every study I have read about the acoustics of guitars cites the top as the most important factor for tone. I will note as an anecdote that there is a piece of velcro in a similar place inside my B-50 and I can attack a bag containing a 9 volt battery to that velcro when i want to use the under saddle PU. I can hear no discernible difference whether the battery is there or not. Anecdotal, but I'd like to believe that if it made a real (as opposed to theoretical) difference in the sound or sustain then they would not do it. I am convinced that the folks in New Hartford are passionately committed to making the best guitar they can and if they believe it had a negative effect I'm sure they would do something else. I also believe, from direct conversation, that they know a whole lot more about guitars than I do.
 
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Brand new, no electronics, from Guild's own site...

3852810821_frt_wmd_001.png


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3856300837_frt_wmd_001.png
 

fronobulax

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SFIV1967 said:
My mid 2010 GSR F-30 Rosewood (no electronics) has one factory installed.
Just go here http://www.guildguitars.com/instruments/?section=all and look at the pictures, many do have strap buttons installed but also some don't.
Ralf

Well I was going to say the GSR is a special case, but we are talking about Guilds.

My experience just looking at the web site now is that I can find pictures of guitars with strap buttons but there is nothing to indicate whether the instrument actually in the picture is the electric or non-electric version. I recall having to confirm via a phone call that the F-30 Traditional did not come with a strap button in 2011 because the pictures on the web site were apparently of a DTAR equipped model and showed a strap button.

I'm thinking my question remains unanswered but I'm also thinking that if strap buttons are important and one shops the Guild web site, one might get the impression that all Guilds come with a strap button these days.
 

fronobulax

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Terry Allan Hall said:
Brand new, no electronics, from Guild's own site...

Our posts crossed but the F-30 pictured on the web site in Oct. 2011 had a strap button and it took a call to back to Guild for the selling dealer to confirm that there was not a strap button on a non-electric F-30 Traditional.

Given the importance of strap buttons to some buyers it does seem as if Guild is doing themselves a disservice by letting one picture stand in for all of the variations on a model and not being clear which ones have the button. Maybe they have changed and put buttons on everything? If so, I would like more evidence than their pictures since the web site picture in October 2011 was wrong about the strap button.
 

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Frono, like I said, I don't think the answer is as formulaic as you want. You're looking for a rule, and what there was was time passing and some changes, that's all.

Bluesy, we definitely did talk with them about the strap button placement as well as the electronics themselves. Some of us expressed displeasure with the side-mounted button.
 

AcornHouse

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killdeer43 said:
Here's a question that I don't think I've heard/read before when this issue has come up in the past.
Does that "extra block of wood" that's glued in to anchor the strap button affect the sound in any way? If so, why on earth would they do that? :?

I've always thought that the acoustics/projection/quality of sound of a guitar would be somewhat affected by anything inside the body of the guitar. To reiterate, why add an "extra block of wood?" :?

Anyone?

Curious Joe
Short answer, no.

Long answer, in the bracing of guitar soundboards, there is a transverse brace above the soundboard which helps to counteract the force that the neck and fingerboard extension put on the soundboard. That brace, which is thicker and heavier than all of the other braces, effectively stops the major vibrations. So anything done to the soundboard north of that brace has little to no effect on the vibrations. (Somoygi writes about this.) That's why you see carving and inlay above the soundhole on very high end guitars, but not below it. So the glue block and strap button do not affect the sound at all.
 

chazmo

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AcornHouse said:
killdeer43 said:
Here's a question that I don't think I've heard/read before when this issue has come up in the past.
Does that "extra block of wood" that's glued in to anchor the strap button affect the sound in any way? If so, why on earth would they do that? :?

I've always thought that the acoustics/projection/quality of sound of a guitar would be somewhat affected by anything inside the body of the guitar. To reiterate, why add an "extra block of wood?" :?

Anyone?

Curious Joe
Short answer, no.

Long answer, in the bracing of guitar soundboards, there is a transverse brace above the soundboard which helps to counteract the force that the neck and fingerboard extension put on the soundboard. That brace, which is thicker and heavier than all of the other braces, effectively stops the major vibrations. So anything done to the soundboard north of that brace has little to no effect on the vibrations. (Somoygi writes about this.) That's why you see carving and inlay above the soundhole on very high end guitars, but not below it. So the glue block and strap button do not affect the sound at all.

What that fails to take into account is simply the change in geometry in the soundbox, Acorn. I think we're talking about stuff that's probably imperceptible, but a chunk of wood displacing air in the soundbox probably has some effect.
 

charliea

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My 2010 F512 had a strap button on the side. It's 2011 replacement didn't. My 2011 F412 and F212XL also don't have buttons. My 2011 F212XLCE (with electronics) has a strap button on the heel of the neck. Seems to support frono's understanding.
 

AcornHouse

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Chazmo said:
What that fails to take into account is simply the change in geometry in the soundbox, Acorn. I think we're talking about stuff that's probably imperceptible, but a chunk of wood displacing air in the soundbox probably has some effect.
The extra block is a relatively small percentage of the total air volume, I would guess less than 1%, and probably less than .1%. And, being next to the neck block, it is not adding any new interruption of the airflow pattern.

Somoygi has done numerous studies on the effects of various changes to braceing and other changes inside the soundbox. He goes so far as to make test sound boxes.

You have more impact on the sound the way you hold the guitar, whether the guitar is against your chest, or in a more classical position, with the back free to vibrate.
 

chazmo

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Yup. Like I said, I'm sure it's negligible.

People have asked me if cutaways change the sound of guitars, and I'm hear to tell you yes. Apples/oranges? Sure. But it's all subjective.
 

Sal

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Pete Seeger doesn't worry himself over strap buttons.
Just a well placed eye-screw and a rope, thanks.

this-machine-surrounds-hate-and-forces-it-to-surrender.jpg
 
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Sal said:
Pete Seeger doesn't worry himself over strap buttons.
Just a well placed eye-screw and a rope, thanks.

this-machine-surrounds-hate-and-forces-it-to-surrender.jpg

True, but he put it at the spot that was right for him, the spot where the extra-long neck and the body balanced comfortably.

pete6559-d0ebc779c6ffb4761a80536e103c0167e4b81393-s51.jpg


By the same token, putting the strap pin on the treble side of the heel moves the balance point slightly towards the tuners, and allows an acoustic guitar to hang more comfortably balanced, in the opinion of most acoustic guitarists.

Having to correct that issue on a brand new instrument requires that I'd be paying to be left w/ an ugly hole that can't be completely hidden...so, as long as Fender thinks they know more than most acoustic guitarists about how we feel on such matters, many of us will buy used, NOS or (as a last resort) another brand.

And, believe it or not, Fender (if any of your Corporate bean counters is interested enough to follow threads a a website devoted to your product, like a more customer-oriented company (coughTAYLORcough) would do) for many of us, the small issue of an unnecessary, unsightly hole in a new instrument really IS a deal breaker. :idea:
 

The Guilds of Grot

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Wow, you really do hate Fender don't you. I don't think that Fender has anything to do with the strap button location. I'm pretty sure it was a Guild decision. I would find it hard to believe that exec's from fender are calling up Chris and telling him where to locate strap buttons!

Maybe you need to attend a LMG to get a better feel for the relationship between Fender and Guild.
 

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charliea said:
My 2010 F512 had a strap button on the side. It's 2011 replacement didn't. My 2011 F412 and F212XL also don't have buttons. My 2011 F212XLCE (with electronics) has a strap button on the heel of the neck. Seems to support frono's understanding.
That's indeed interesting.

The F-212XLCE indeed got a strap button on the heel!
3851706821_alt_wlg_009.jpg


Whereas the F-212XL does not have any:
3851700821_alt_wlg_006.jpg


Ralf
 
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