F20 action

[F20 NT]

Hi LTG,
I have a 66 Hoboken F20 NT, and really love it, fantastic tone.
The guitar’s action starts to get real high from the 12th, 1/8 to 3/16 at the end of the bridge.
Naturally, intonation there is also a problem.
The truss road is adjusted just shy of buzzing, strings are elixir 11s, lighter than I might use on other guitars.
This doesn’t seem to make much difference.
There’s room to bring the saddle down a little, though I don’t think it would be enough to make a big difference.
Looking at few others online, the action seems similarly high, which makes me wonder if it might be a common issue with guitars of similar vintage.
So I thought I’d ask the experts....
Is this a common issue?
Are there solutions you might suggest?
Reading a few other posts and comments, maybe a neck reset is on the cards, though I'd be interested in hearing a few opinions first.
I’m based in Sydney, Australia
Thanks for reading!

 

[adorshki]

Hi LTG,
I have a 66 Hoboken F20 NT, and really love it, fantastic tone.
The guitar’s action starts to get real high from the 12th, 1/8 to 3/16 at the end of the bridge.
The truss road is adjusted just shy of buzzing, strings are elixir 11s, lighter than I might use on other guitars.
There’s room to bring the saddle down a little, though I don’t think it would be enough to make a big difference.
Looking at few others online, the action seems similarly high, which makes me wonder if it might be a common issue with guitars of similar vintage.
So I thought I’d ask the experts....
maybe a neck reset is on the cards, though I'd be interested in hearing a few opinions first.
I’m based in Sydney, Australia
Thanks for reading!

Welcome aboard, F20NT!

Sounds like you've got a handle on issues that affect action height, but not sure what you mean by "end of the bridge".

The standard location for measuring action is at the 12th fret, measuring the clearance between the top of the fret and the bottom of the E strings.

For Guild flattops of the late '90's at least, the specs were given in 64ths of an inch:
5-6/64 for bass E, and 4-5/64 for the treble. All mine came that way and I find it ideal, BUT

A '66 F20 may have been set up for even lower action, don't know. But I'd be surprised if it was much lower than 4/64 on the bass E, to give you a frame of reference.

Saddles were also profiled to match the fingerboard radius for even action across the strings. Each fraction removed from the bottom of the saddle yields 1/2 that fraction of lowered action height at the 12th fret. That'll help you gauge whether a saddle adjustment would fix the issue.

Any guitar of that age is a likely candidate for a reset, but to truly establish whether or not a neck reset's needed, there's the neck alignment check, detailed here:

FRETS.COM

Quick aside, the angle check also assumes the bridge is unshaved, which is a method of compensating for a neck in need of reset.

A very common ideal spec for the combined height of the bridge and the saddle is 1/2" give or take a 32nd (as mine are), but it wouldn't surprise me if '66 F20's had a bit lower bridge/saddle height, maybe something like 7/16"?

A shaved bridge isn't necessarily a bad thing, but we can go into that later if relevant.

Hopefully a couple of the F20 owners can verify my guesses re action and bridge/saddle heights.

Got pics?

 

[F20 NT]

Hey, thanks for your reply! Very insightful.
Oops, I meant the height from the (body) end of the neck, not the bridge.
The frets article seems to be a good diagnosis for my issue, which sounds like a fairly involved procedure for a luthier, though not unheard of.
I don’t think the bridge has been shaved since I’ve had it.

 

[SFIV1967]

...maybe a neck reset is on the cards

Welcome to LTG! As it looks to me your F-20 already had a neck reset and got new frets in the past. As you see the fingerboard is significantly raised over the body already by adding a big shim under the fretboard and you also see that the neck was off the body previously. So there were most probably some previous issues with a sunken in top. A luthier could tell what to do.
(EDIT: See Al's post below I seem to be wrong here!)
(EDIT 2: See post #7 below, I am really wrong here...)

And it's hard to see depending on camera angle, but that saddle seems to lean less than perfect in the saddle slot. The height of the bridge looks good as is the distance between the strings and the top infront of the bridge. But there might be issues with the internal bridge plate as that low E-string bridge pin seems to lean backwards? But maybe it's just the camara picture distorition and all is fine there.

Ralf

 

[adorshki]

Welcome to LTG! Your F-20 already had a neck reset and got new frets in the past. As you see the fingerboard is significantly raised over the body already by adding a big shim under the fretboard and you also see that the neck was off the body previously. So there were obviously some previous issues with a sunken in top. A luthier could tell what to do.

Ralf

I remember posts about shims being used under fretboard extensions in mid-60's, it came up when one of our members was rebuilding a 12-string ("Craig" I think it was, can't remember his user handle right now).

Anyway, somehow that shim looked "factory" to me so I wondered if it would show up on another F20, and sure enough, this eekBay listing has a nice side shot of the neck joint, and zooming in shows the same shim:

GUILD 1960's F 20 Acoustic Parlor Style Guitar.Excellent Condition | eBay

This Guild F 20 parlor acoustic guitar dates to 1967 as per the on-line Guild serial number dating guide. This serial number appears on both a paper label inside the body of the guitar and stamped into the wood on the top back of the guitar head.

www.ebay.com

I can't capture the pic from the listing but what's nice is it's zoom-able to get a nice clear look at the same area, the fretboard extension.

So, not "Definitive" proof, but suspect F20's guitar is "as built".

@F20 NT , checking the neck angle yourself isn't really too complicated, primary detail is to adjust the truss rod so neck is "perfectly" flat, so that doesn't throw off the angle of the straightedge, and should be measured with strings at tension.

Also, be aware Ralf and I actually back each other up frequently, so even though sometimes we may appear to disagree it's really more about presenting evidence for the most complete insights into "how Guild did stuff". Kind of complementing each other's strengths.

We surprise each other sometimes but there's always mutual respect.

 

[SFIV1967]

Good points Al! As I said in another thread, that was not my day today...Sure, now I remember such shims used or at least that we disussed them before! It's always hard saying something about a guitar with only having pictures and not having the guitar in hand.

Here's the shot from that other F-20 Al showed as having also such a shim under the fretboard:

Ralf

 

[SFIV1967]

And now what Hans had to say about it! So I was definitey wrong!

F20 neck reset question...

I'm doing a neck reset on my '66 F20 and there's something odd going on here.(aside from the fact I'm doing it myself..) Typically the fretboard extends out over the body to the sound hole and sits directly on the top. On this guitar there was a thin mahogany shim glued to the bottom of the...

letstalkguild.com

Ralf

 

[adorshki]

And now what Hans had to say about it! So I was definitely wrong!

F20 neck reset question...

I'm doing a neck reset on my '66 F20 and there's something odd going on here.(aside from the fact I'm doing it myself..) Typically the fretboard extends out over the body to the sound hole and sits directly on the top. On this guitar there was a thin mahogany shim glued to the bottom of the...

letstalkguild.com

Ralf

I feel so vindicated!!!!

(In your favor, the use of a shim in a reset was also mentioned by Hideglue in that thread, though.)

 

[F20 NT]

I feel so vindicated!!!!

(In your favor, the use of a shim in a reset was also mentioned by Hideglue in that thread, though.)

Thanks for your replies, I’ve definitely come to the right place for advice. What a great resource! I’ll consult a local luthier and let you know how it goes. Thanks again

 

[beecee]

I've been here a few years and I still get amazed at the amount of knowledge and the sharing that goes on here.

You may want to forward this thread to your luthier, unless his name is Hans or Fixit he may make the same assumption about that shim!

 

[F20 NT]

Ok, will do