Exploded M20 bridge

[mavuser]

i always thought if you were going to lower a saddle, you would take it out and shave off from the bottom?
certainly not if it is glued in...shows u what i know!

 

[mavuser]

but what if you were going to do a neck reset, how would you get the old glued saddle out of the bridge? I must be missing something.

 

[donnylang]

^ like in the article linked above I would suppose. And it would be shaved from the top, which is likely why no luthier wants to glue it in ha.

 

[donnylang]

FRETS.COM

www.frets.com

 

[donnylang]

Now I’m starting to wonder if this is part of why so many Hoboken-era Guilds have cracked bridges- modern luthiers not glueing the through-saddle in.

 

[bobouz]

i always thought if you were going to lower a saddle, you would take it out and shave off from the bottom?

I used to sand saddles from the bottom, but nowadays since I’m almost always using Tusq & they’re properly squared on the bottom from the factory, I’ve become accustomed to sanding & shaping the radius as desired from the top - and greatly prefer it.

 

[Nokomite]

I used to sand saddles from the bottom, but nowadays since I’m almost always using Tusq & they’re properly squared on the bottom from the factory, I’ve become accustomed to sanding & shaping the radius as desired from the top - and greatly prefer it.

Is there a noticeable difference/advantage between Tusq and bone?

 

[Nokomite]

Now I’m starting to wonder if this is part of why so many Hoboken-era Guilds have cracked bridges- modern luthiers not glueing the through-saddle in.

I don't know about other Hoboken Guilds, because I only own one, but the distance between the saddle and the soundhole side (don't know what other more luthierly way to phrase it) of my M20 bridge that broke is much narrower than other bridges on my other guitars. If you look at the picture it's not much wider than the actual saddle itself, on its side. I think the angle and pressure on such a narrow piece of wood almost as old as I am could have contributed to its demise, especially when a new saddle had been installed during a neck reset, and any effect from the funky nut slots. Funky nut slots, being a good band name, but not a great description of the issue with them.

 

[donnylang]

I don't know about other Hoboken Guilds, because I only own one, but the distance between the saddle and the soundhole side (don't know what other more luthierly way to phrase it) of my M20 bridge that broke is much narrower than other bridges on my other guitars. If you look at the picture it's not much wider than the actual saddle itself, on its side. I think the angle and pressure on such a narrow piece of wood almost as old as I am could have contributed to its demise, especially when a new saddle had been installed during a neck reset, and any effect from the funky nut slots. Funky nut slots, being a good band name, but not a great description of the issue with them.

No doubt this is relevant, and yes I’ve seen many that are pretty thin in that area. Just kind of thinking out loud that when these guitars were built, the saddle was glued- which would provide extra strength and make that permissible. As in ... if the bottom and opposite side of the saddle were glued, your saddle may not have popped out. Which means you would likely just see a slight split or something (if anytning) instead of that pop. Just an idea that makes sense to me as a layman.

 

[adorshki]

No doubt this is relevant, and yes I’ve seen many that are pretty thin in that area. Just kind of thinking out loud that when these guitars were built, the saddle was glued- which would provide extra strength and make that permissible. As in ... if the bottom and opposite side of the saddle were glued, your saddle may not have popped out. Which means you would likely just see a slight split or something (if anytning) instead of that pop. Just an idea that makes sense to me as a layman.

"Huh". While I get your reasoning, I still just kind of have this gut feeling Guild didn't do it that way. Or maybe I'm subliminally remembering something seen years ago but not quite consciously recalling?

Kind of curious what Hans would say. Hans, Meneer Moust? Any insight on glued-in saddles in through-slot bridge M20's?

Re Martin I suspect their method was more related to their build philosophy of "permanence", along with non-adjustable truss rods for example. Also, saddle itself was ivory which is not only more durable than bone (or micarta) and thus not expected to need replacement or adjustment for many years, but also smoother and thus more likely to "slip" (sideways) in the slot?

Just looking at "the other side of that coin", but not certain by any means.

 

[donnylang]

All I can find is anecdotal stuff; here’s a post from someone about shaving the saddle on a ‘65 D40 that’s glued-in:

How important is the shape of the crown of the saddle? - The Acoustic Guitar Forum

How important is the shape of the crown of the saddle? General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

www.acousticguitarforum.com

 

[jedzep]

Over on the UMGF there are several very forthcoming, generous experienced luthiers who offer up plenty of free info. At least half of them advise a light dot of glue to stabilize a saddle. Not for me, but I respect the word of experienced veterans in the field.

I use a few forums, but none hold a candle to the UMGF as far as this level of luthier advice. Wonder why sometimes.

 

[bobouz]

Is there a noticeable difference/advantage between Tusq and bone?

Tusq will typically result in a brighter & punchier tone compared to bone. A more percussive tone is what I’m after with my fingerpicking style, and Tusq has consistently moved my guitars in that direction.

 

[adorshki]

All I can find is anecdotal stuff; here’s a post from someone about shaving the saddle on a ‘65 D40 that’s glued-in:

How important is the shape of the crown of the saddle? - The Acoustic Guitar Forum

How important is the shape of the crown of the saddle? General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

www.acousticguitarforum.com

Slight veer, but I "get" why sanding the crown of the saddle my be preferable to the oft-recommended "shave the bottom":
I myself wanted to tweak the profile of the new saddle that was included in the last re-fret of the D25 because the G string was just a few thousandths too high. So only that section of the saddle needed work, miniscule as it was, and I wasn't trying to lower action on all the strings at once.

I also hit the nut slot with a few swipes, another critical component of playing ease down at the first 4 or 5 frets.

 

[SFIV1967]

but what if you were going to do a neck reset, how would you get the old glued saddle out of the bridge? I must be missing something.

I'd say you could heat it up and put some water with a brush on both sides of the saddle and that way the glue get soft (if hideglue was used). But it's indeed also the first time I hear about glued-in through saddles, but since Frank Ford reports about it I believe it. On the other hand, if I think about it, wouldn't such a saddle possibly slide left and right if not fixed a bit? A normal saddle is fixed because it sits in a saddle slot that is closed on both sides, so won't move. So one question is how much glue to use. On a nut you can use just a drop, so on a through saddle also. But maybe it has really stability reasons for the bridge? No idea.
Ralf

 

[Heath]

I'd say you could heat it up and put some water with a brush on both sides of the saddle and that way the glue get soft (if hideglue was used). But it's indeed also the first time I hear about glued-in through saddles, but since Frank Ford reports about it I believe it. On the other hand, if I think about it, wouldn't such a saddle possibly slide left and right if not fixed a bit? A normal saddle is fixed because it sits in a saddle slot that is closed on both sides, so won't move. So one question is how much glue to use. On a nut you can use just a drop, so on a through saddle also. But maybe it has really stability reasons for the bridge? No idea.
Ralf

Doesn’t string tension hold the saddle in place? The same theory as with an archtop with a floating bridge?

 

[jedzep]

Yes. That applies to the nut, as well. I see no reason to glue either. I've used the Zero-Glide (zero fret) nut set up on a few guitars and like to know I don't have to wrestle off an overglued nut.

 

[adorshki]

Doesn’t string tension hold the saddle in place? The same theory as with an archtop with a floating bridge?

I'd think that too, but then again, those floating bridges can move around, and I suppose a through saddle could be subject to being moved a bit too, with a not-necessarily-damaging but well-placed "impact".

 

[wileypickett]

According to the experts, saddles should be snug enough in their saddle slots that you should just about be able to pick up the guitar by the saddle alone. (Dan Erlewine used this as an example of how snug he seats his saddles, but quickly added that he didn't recommend actually trying this at home!)

Keep in mind that through-saddles were the norm long before steel-string guitars were ever thought of. Classical guitars, lutes, and many other stringed instruments were, and still are, constructed that way.

Martin, in designing steel-string guitars with a through-saddle, may have been simply following in the tradition.

But classical guitar makers do not glue their saddles in. (Again, a snug fit is supposed to be all that's required to hold them in place.)

Before this thread I'd never heard of anyone gluing in their saddles, so I have no idea why Martin glued in their through-saddles and Guild didn't. Perhaps Martin did this because through-saddle slots are necessarily shallower than regular routed saddles, since the ends of a through-saddle have to be ABOVE the ends (wings, ears) of the bridge, and gluing them in was thought to secure them better?

Regular saddle slots can be routed deeper into the bridge than through-saddles. This supposedly better transfers sound through the bridge and to the top of the guitar, which is why this method has been employed by most guitar makers for 50 years or more. Also, so long as the saddle is fitted properly, there's less likelihood of a deeply seated saddle cracking the bridge.

Maybe the invention of the routed saddle slot coincided with the invention of the router?! If you're building guitars by hand, a through-saddle slot would be easier to carve into the bridge than a routed saddle slot.

 

[wileypickett]

Some guitars have nut slots and some don't, but either way, nuts are typically glued in.

For the saddle, string pressure is down, not side-to-side. A through-saddle, even a loose one, is not going to pull to one side or the other.

For nuts however there's more pull on the bass side of the nut than on the treble.

It doesn't require much glue to hold a nut in place (I tried using Glue-Stick once -- it didn't hold) but without something to secure the nut you're likely to see the nut slide to the bass side as the strings come under tension.