Exploded M20 bridge

jedzep

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I think it's overkill, but probably to keep moisture from leaching in from the exposed end grain.
 

Rebosbro

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As luck would have it, I stoped by to see my tech Sunday and he showed me a new bridge his buddy had made of an early 70’s D-25 with a CNC machine. It was incredible! If you can’t salvage it(which I doubt) or find a replacement, send me a PM. He is very reasonable and LOVES Guilds!
Paul
 

davismanLV

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I don't get this. Very clean looking break. I'd dry fit it, make sure it fits perfect, then slap some glue on each side carefully, let it set up for a minute or two, clamp and let it dry. Then with a sharp chisel, clean out any glue squeeze out and then put it back together. It's an easy fix. And if it doesn't work, THEN worry about a whole new bridge and all that entails. You're making this way harder than it is. If the guitar has had a neck reset, this should be easy.
 

Rebosbro

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The one my tech replaced was only cracked and he said it was unrepairable, think due to the amount of tension on the strings. But I’m not sure. 🤷‍♂️
Paul
 

jedzep

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I think it will be difficult to maintain the repaired bridge through string changes and general use, as there will always be some push and pressure toward the sound hole, especially if the saddle fit is at all too tight and the string slots aren't filled.

Nevertheless, you may buy some playing time.

I'm going to keep the names of above-mentioned bridge replicators in my files for future reference, though my luthier made a dead-on replica of a 30's Gibson rectangular version, which ran me a couple hundred bucks.
 

Nokomite

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I don't get this. Very clean looking break. I'd dry fit it, make sure it fits perfect, then slap some glue on each side carefully, let it set up for a minute or two, clamp and let it dry. Then with a sharp chisel, clean out any glue squeeze out and then put it back together. It's an easy fix. And if it doesn't work, THEN worry about a whole new bridge and all that entails. You're making this way harder than it is. If the guitar has had a neck reset, this should be easy.
I do get that this isn't what everybody would do, but I think the physics are against this kind of band-aid fix long term, and I don't want to risk it. This is a really nice collector grade M20 and it's a killer little fingerstyle blues guitar. I went to the expense of having the neck reset so I think a faithful bridge replacement would be the best solution at this point for me. Between the neck reset and a new bridge (and it seems the brazwood bridge is possible) then it would be like new.
 

mavuser

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Tom Jacobs has made many Guild replacement bridges. he used to work at the Guild factory in Westerly. He just made a new bridge on a Hoboken M-20 of mine (1964), it's the same exact bridge you need. forget repairing the old one.
can it be done...sure. But a new one is much better
 

kostask

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I don't get this. Very clean looking break. I'd dry fit it, make sure it fits perfect, then slap some glue on each side carefully, let it set up for a minute or two, clamp and let it dry. Then with a sharp chisel, clean out any glue squeeze out and then put it back together. It's an easy fix. And if it doesn't work, THEN worry about a whole new bridge and all that entails. You're making this way harder than it is. If the guitar has had a neck reset, this should be easy.

Pesonally, I would have the bridge replaced. Part of the reason the front edge of the bridge broke off has to do with the direction of the grain; It is approximately parallel to the saddle slot, or front of the bridge, judging from the way the break happened. This means that the current bridge's wood grain direction is less than ideal from a strength perspective. The wood may crack again along these grain lines. It won't be the glue joint the fails, but it may be further in towards the saddle slot, or below the saddle slot, etc., because the glue joint will be stronger than the surrounding wood. Point is, the surrounding wood isn't strong, again, because the wood grain direction is parallel to the front of the bridge. Will it break again? Unknown. However, there is definitely a possibility that it will. I would have a new bridge carved out of rosewood (Brazilian if possible, to match the original bridge, Indian if Brazilian is not available), with the grain lines running 45 degrees (or close to that) to the saddle slot/bridge front. This ensures a stronger bridge front. I would not be concerned either way whether it was a regular saddle slot or though slot, as the 45 degree wood grain angle will make it far stronger than the current bridge in either case. The string slots could be addressed at the same time while the new bridge is being carved.
 
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adorshki

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The wood may crack again along these grain lines. It won't be the glue joint the fails, but it may be further in towards the saddle slot, or below the saddle slot, etc., because the glue joint will be stronger than the surrounding wood.
... I would have a new bridge carved out of rosewood (Brazilian if possible, to match the original bridge, Indian if Brazilian is not available...
I was thinking along those same lines myself, esp. re the glue joint being stronger than the wood itself, but hadn't thought about the grain pattern issue. Interesting. And btw, @Nokomite, save the original bridge (or remnants) in any case, just to be with the guitar. :cool:
 
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cutrofiano

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...the 45 degree wood grain angle will make it far stronger...
Interesting. Do you have a picture of an example? I have never seen a bridge with a 45° wood grain angle.
All the ones I have paid notice to were cut parallel to the slot.
I totally agree that the string slots may have caused the problem. They alone would justify the search for a substitute.
Moritz
 
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kostask

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Not on hand. The idea of the 45 degree wood grain angle is to try to get the force (such that it is< and I am not claiming it is anywhere near the magnitude of the force pushing the saddle vertically downdwards) to not work directly against the weakest direction of the woodgrain. Ideally, the angle is 45 dergrees, and most handbuilders will strive for that. The large factories won't, because it will use up more material (most wood arrives cut along the grain lines, or perpendicularly across), so it is just more efficient to make bridge blanks that have the long side follow the wood grain. When you are carving out a bridge by hand, and only doing it occasionally, this is easy to do.

It should also be noted that this doesn't apply to wood with interlocking grain, like mahogany, or other specialized types of wood, like ebony, which don't have much discernable grain.
 

donnylang

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I think it’s worth discussing the through-saddle being not glued in as a factor here. To me, it seems like the design of the bridge (including the grain direction etc) is relevant. If it were designed to be glued in (which I believe is the case), and this one was not glued- that could very well be part of why the bridge cracked. It would also potentially be another source of strength to prevent this from happening again should the owner want to maintain originality on the guitar.

Can’t find much on Guild, but found this:

 

wileypickett

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Interesting — and I love the modified soldering iron attachment!

I’m no expert. My evidence for not gluing is just based on what I’ve seen and read over the years.

No through-saddle guitar I’ve ever owned or worked on (a dozen or so) had their saddles glued in.

Which doesn’t mean that some makers — like Martin apparently — didn’t do it; I’m mainly talking about Guilds.

I have acquired guitars that had glued-in saddles but so far as I remember, those were slotted, and I suspect the gluing was done by previous owners, not by the instrument maker.

Some I was able to coax out with heat, but one had apparently been glued in with epoxy. It wouldn’t budge. That one I finally had to rout out, which created a void in the bridge I had to fill with a custom piece of Braz rosewood. I then routed a new slot.

Whatever was done in the past, no one seems to advocate gluing in saddles now. (Did the guy repairing the Martin glue in his newly fabricated saddle?)
 
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Nokomite

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For what it's worth, I've owned a lot of nice and not so nice guitars, and have never had one with a glued-in saddle, at least that I've known of. Actually this is a worthless comment, because I have only had a handful of saddles worked on to lower the action, or to replace plastic with bone, and the tech maybe didn't disclose to me that the old one had been glued in. So, never mind! /in Emily Litella voice
 
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donnylang

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The repair person doing the Martin linked above did indeed note he would be glueing the saddle in with hide glue. I am reasonably certain the design of the through-bridge was with the expectation that it should be glued in.

I too have no idea if the ones I’ve had were glued in, as I always change one string at a time- another long lost practice that was recommended in the paperwork included with 1960s Guilds. Guild explicitly indicated that the guitar would lose some of its sonority if all strings were taken off at once- and take a period to come back. I’ve personally found this to be true, even before reading that. But the primary reason I change and stretch one at a time is because the guitar stays in tune much better and faster this way in my experience.

I also think the through-bridge sounds better than standard saddle. No idea if glueing has any impact on sound but I doubt it.
 
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