Ebay D-50 Brazillian Rosewood?

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Item 260214059600 claims to be a 1970 Brazillian Rosewood D-50.
It looks like IRW to me.
What do you think?
Sorry, I don't know how to post a link.
Geezerites I guess.

 

[dreadnut]

Certainly looks to me like it could be Braz because of the wavy grain, but what do I know, I'm just using the SWAG method...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1970-Guild-D50-Natu ... dZViewItem

 

[chazmo]

The sides are almost certainly Brazilian. The back does look more to me like Indian. That's possible. In this era they were mixing things up that way. In any case, there you go... definitely "made to be played" and this one has been played. Very nice!

 

[Pike]

I've seen these before. Yes, it is indian back, braz sides.

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Would a guitar like this be worth refininshig, or would it be better to leave it alone?
It makes me cringe a little to see a great guitar like this abused like that!
There is used and then there is abused!

 

[california]

I've seen these before. Yes, it is indian back, braz sides.

Ditto. Guildmark and I saw one just like this at a show last year with Brz sides and EIR back. Unfortunaltely, also beat up like this one.

 

[chazmo]

Would a guitar like this be worth refininshig, or would it be better to leave it alone?
It makes me cringe a little to see a great guitar like this abused like that!
There is used and then there is abused!

Martin guys would put this in a box and send it to Nazareth, get a new top installed and get a complete strip and refinish... Of course, we Guilders don't have that option...

Hey, TMG, it's made to be played... I'll bet this guitar sings, regardless of what it looks like (assuming it's still playable). I'd leave it alone until (and unless) it needs a neck reset. Did I miss anything obvious that screams "fix me now?"

 

[gilded]

Martin guys would put this in a box and send it to Nazareth, get a new top installed and get a complete strip and refinish... Of course, we Guilders don't have that option...

This Martin guy wouldn't do that, Chazmo. You must not like Martians!

Secondly, it's a '71, not a '70, which means that the guitar is mis-marked in the auction. So much for the thrust of the auction that Brazilian RW was used in '70, eh?

Thirdly, if any of you guys are thinking about buying it, you're gonna need to budget a lot of money for repair. I'm not saying don't buy it, but do yourselves a favor and look at picture number 7. Please examine the fact that the top binding on both sides of the neck, is 'sucked in' very slightly towards the sound hole (by the way, if you look at where the back binding meets the neck in picture 10, you'll see a bit of this, plus a small separation of the heel binding and the back binding). Here, look at pic 7:

Now, look at pic 10. It's not as obvious, but if you zoom in you can see it better:

What does it mean? It means that the neck block has come loose from the sides and/or the inside of the top, which will lead to top cracks (the auction mentions three) and often-times, sound-hole warping.

Why does this happen? Well, sometimes, glue just lets go, but usually it means that the guitar got hot, the glue loosened and 150-200lbs. of string tension pulled the neck/neck block towards the bridge. When the glue gets cool again, it re-adheres in a slightly different place than was originally intended.

The fix is to loosen everything back up with a hot knife (thin, heated spatula), pull the neck and block back into the right place (as far as you can), then re-glue everything. A lot of times, there will be very thin cracks in the top right along one or both sides of the finger board. Typically, you have to 'shelve' those cracks with a long supporting clete that runs along side the top of the neck block.

Another little deal with the heat. If the binding that Guild used in the '50's, '60's and '70's gets hot, it's just a question of time until it starts crumbling; not 'if', but 'when'.

Anyway, that's my best guess.

 

[chazmo]

Martin guys would put this in a box and send it to Nazareth, get a new top installed and get a complete strip and refinish... Of course, we Guilders don't have that option...

This Martin guy wouldn't do that, Chazmo. You must not like Martians![ ... ]

Really, why not? They do beautiful restorations from what I've seen over in the UMGF.

Oh, and by the way, I love Martians. Especially Ray Walston.

 

[gilded]

Chazmo, I meant that I wouldn't re-top it over a few cracks. I don't know many folks who would.

I did get my luthier to re-top a '57 D-28 once. Someone had sanded the top with a brick (I guess) and it was too thin, as in .09" instead of .125". Also, the (incorrect) replacement bridge had been bolted on and the (incorrect) replacement pickguard was set at a jaunty angle compared to the original. Bad refin, too. Very tubby-sounding.

Went back with adirondack and pre-war bracing. The guitar sounded great. 40 year old Brazilian and an adirondack top; why wouldn't it? Would do it again, but only with a top that was literally ruined.

Still have the top. Pics are available, but it's a freak show look and not for the faint of heart!

 

[Tres]

Chazmo, I meant that I wouldn't re-top it over a few cracks. I don't know many folks who would.

I did get my luthier to re-top a '57 D-28 once. Someone had sanded the top with a brick (I guess) and it was too thin, as in .09" instead of .125". Also, the (incorrect) replacement bridge had been bolted on and the (incorrect) replacement pickguard was set at a jaunty angle compared to the original. Bad refin, too. Very tubby-sounding.

Went back with adirondack and pre-war bracing. The guitar sounded great. 40 year old Brazilian and an adirondack top; why wouldn't it? Would do it again, but only with a top that was literally ruined.

Still have the top. Pics are available, but it's a freak show look and not for the faint of heart!

I did similar with a '67 D-28 with a damaged top (Ad top with pre-war bracing). It now sounds great. I call it my stealth guitar because it looks like a '67 but sounds like a GE!.

BTW: I don't know any Martin players who would want to retop a vintage guitar in good condition-- it would kill the value. And as for simply refinishing, that would kill the vintage tone.

Tres

 

[chazmo]

gilded,

OK, I get ya'. Looking at this guitar's top, I agree... It's got lots of "mojo," but it doesn't come close to needing replacement.

Given the state of the binding, though, and if it needed neck work to the extent that the fingerboard had to be steamed off, I'd still consider a full restoration and refinish. I guess it would all come down to the state of the neck and it's current playability.

Tres,

Why do you think a refinish would affect tone? Does that really make any appreciable difference? Granted, replacing the wood or the bracing would have an affect, but finish? I'm just curious.

 

[gilded]

A new nitro-cellulose lacquer finish is gonna have the result of not allowing the wood to move as much as on an older guitar. To an extent (a very small extent), lacquer will hold the wood in stasis and prevent it from vibrating as much as it could without a finish.

'Vintage tone' from the aspect of the finish? Lacquer finishes thin out over the decades. The result is that an older finish is generally less restrictive on an instrument than a new finish. As well, older finishes tend to crack. The 'cracking' further minimizes the restrictive ability of the finish and increases the ability of the instrument to be able to vibrate.

Nowadays, Gibson and Fender sell guitars with 'distressed finishes'. They use thinned-out, harder finishes that are made to crack and chip. As ridiculous as that would seem (and it is!), some of these models sound really, really good. Go figure.

Why put lacquer on guitars? To protect them. Are there less restrictive finishes available? Yes, there are several types of
varnish finishes available, that allow more movement to be transmitted. Still, those finishes aren't as protective as lacquer.

Getting back to this D-50, if you have to rebind it, you might want to take a hard look at refinishing it. But, if you're gonna do that, you might as well take the back off, pull the neck and the block, then put it all back together right. Shouldn't cost more than $1000-1500. Hmmn, not exactly a moneymaking project, is it?