Early F-312 Bridges - Ebony & Rosewood

F-412Spec

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I have a "volute" '65 F-312 which has been out of commission for about 20 years. Did 312s from this era (the AS series) ALL have ebony bridges, or were some rosewood?

I think my 412Special from those days (AE) had a rosewood bridge....

Curious, because my bridge is split down the center, broken in front, and a candidate for replacement. It has really wierd string spacing too. Taking it off tonight.
 

hansmoust

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Hello B.,

The early F-312s had an ebony bridge. That was changed some time during the year 1965, after which most 12-strings did get a rosewood bridge.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

F-412Spec

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Hey Hans!

Sent you an email last week, but it probably went to the wrong address.

Aaauuughh!! To my disbelief, the factory string spacing on this bridge is uniform, rather than double courses!

Not quite sure how to deal with this, as I prefer the double courses. It's really a puzzle, as the original spacing is based on the center of the pair, and on double courses the strings are closer together. This means each string must be moved towards the center of the pair if I want to maintain string spacing. The whole thing turns into a giant math problem if I prefer to maintain the outer string-to-edge distance instead of the original string spacing.

Have you dealt with this puzzle before? I was thinking it might be better to leave it uniform, just because there can't be many of these around.

RJGZEGX.jpg
ysqxTMe.jpg
 
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hansmoust

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Have you dealt with this puzzle before? I was thinking it might be better to leave it uniform, just because there can't be many of these around.

RJGZEGX.jpg
ysqxTMe.jpg

Yes, I'm familiar with that! And as you can clearly see in the photo of the bottom side, the strings were ramped so you would end up with pairs; that's how Guild dealt with it at the time. Slightly later bridges have the pin holes drilled differently.

Here's a photo of an F-312 bridge from an instrument with a serial number only a few numbers higher than yours:

F312_bridge.jpg


Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

wileypickett

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This is the same string spacing as on the F312 I recently bought from Rich Cohen, and I dealt with the problem the same way, moving the string ramps so the pairs are closer together. (I filled the old ramps first so the new ramps would be clean.)

If you think of the pin holes as clocks, with the original ramp at 12:00, the new ramps are now at 11:00.

Works!
 

F-412Spec

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"....the F312 I recently bought from Rich Cohen"

Is your 312 near these serial numbers? Rosewood or ebony bridge?

"Slightly later bridges have the pin holes drilled differently."

OK - so the bridges on AS-124 (above) and 127 (below) are likely both original. This means the bridges were either installed at random, or the change to rosewood and courses was made on AS-125, AS-126, or this one (AS-127):
ttJpNUe.png
 
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hansmoust

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"Slightly later bridges have the pin holes drilled differently."

OK - so the bridges on AS-124 (above) and 127 (below) are likely both original. This means the bridges were either installed at random, or the change to rosewood and courses was made on AS-125, AS-126, or this one (AS-127):

That is what I was referring to in my earlier posts; AS-125 was still ebony.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
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F-412Spec

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OK; thank you. I now wonder if AS-125 has course holes or uniform holes. And I wonder who's got the details on AS-126 :unsure:

Anyway, I'll have to decide where the holes in my new bridge go, and what wood I'll use. I'm think I'm headed for ebony and the math problem: courses, with overall string distance from outside string edges to fretboard edges remaining the same. Neck came off real clean, so I'll probably start on the bridge tonight.

J7fkIY4.jpg
 

wileypickett

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Mine is serial # 45936; with ebony, saddle-through bridge.

It has a Hoboken label, but if I'm reading Hans' book correctly the guitar was actually made in Westerly in 1970.
 

hansmoust

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Mine is serial # 45936; with ebony, saddle-through bridge.
It has a Hoboken label, but if I'm reading Hans' book correctly the guitar was actually made in Westerly in 1970.

No, your guitar pre-dates the instruments we've been discussing above. It was completed in Hoboken, NJ during the year 1965 and it should indeed have one of those ebony bridges with the 'odd' bridge pin spacing.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

wileypickett

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Thanks, Hans -- I was looking at page 67 of your book and missed the nuance.

So Guild used both three-digit (AS prefix) and five-digit serial numbers in the same year -- 1965 -- and #45936 pre-dates AS-101 to 141? What's the earliest serial number for an F312 that you know of then?
 

hansmoust

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I was looking at page 67 of your book and missed the nuance.

The info is on page 46 of my book; your guitar's serial # falls in the 1959-1965 section.

So Guild used both three-digit (AS prefix) and five-digit serial numbers in the same year -- 1965 -- and #45936 pre-dates AS-101 to 141? What's the earliest serial number for an F312 that you know of then?

The earliest batch of F-312s that I've documented was in the # 29xxx range, but I have seen a few earlier ones that were special orders.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
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F-412Spec

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Well, after due consideration, I'm going with ebony. To eliminate the "channelling" requirement, I calculated new pin hole locations. The pin holes are closer together laterally. The pin holes through top and bridge plate are plugged and dressed flat. For added strength I made this a drop-in saddle design. I widened the slot a bit for more accurate compensaction, and there is room left to increase the angle should it be required or wanted by a future owner using heavier strings or preferring higher action.

I matched the bridge and string centering to the old sihouette and footprint. Specs are now:
2.290” each row pin holes center to center (holes 1-11) and (holes 2-12)
Separation for course strings = .100"
2.290” + .100” offset for pairs = 2.390” spacing string 1 to string 12 centers.
2.290 / 5 = 0.458” Spacig between each pin hole center in one row
Front row pin hole centers are .700” from bridge front face.
Rear row pin hole centers are 1.145 from bridge front face (.445" between rows).

BR 2 - 1.jpg
BR 3 - 1.jpg
BR 2 - 2.jpg
BR 2 - 3.jpg
BR 1 - 1.jpg
 
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F-412Spec

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Is there a modern replacement for the original 12:1 tuning keys? I like 18:1 myself. The Sta-tites I prefer won't fit. Existing = 5/16" holes.
GUILD HEADSTOCK  - 1.jpg
GUILD HEADSTOCK  - 2.jpg
GUILD TUNERS - 1.jpg
 

wileypickett

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"Compensaction" + 1

So many makers are offering vintage style parts these days that I can't say with certainty that there AREN'T higher ratio versions of those wretched six-on-a-planks being made now -- but I'm not aware of any.

I also prefer 18:1s on 12-strings, so individual Grover minis may be your best bet. (That's what are on all my 12-strings including my F312.)

Of course they won't have the look of the original factory tuners, if that's what you're going for, but they will be far less maddening to use if you actually plan to play the thing.

Nice job on the new saddle!
 

HeyMikey

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Has anyone tried these? Are they a direct fit and do the work better?
 

F-412Spec

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Well, I guess it looks like the big Grovers, the little Grovers (18-1), or the Schallers (14-1 mini) like Hank put on AE-176 (replacing the big Grovers). I've seen full size Grovers mounted straight, and slanted, on these old Guilds. I'm seeing what appears to be butterbean tuners on new Guild 12s. Has the hole spacing changed? If not, what are those?
 

wileypickett

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Be sure to get measurements before you buy as I'm pretty sure the full size Grovers (talking about the tuner buttons, not the tuner housings) won't work on a 12-string.

On my F312, there's only about 1/8" clearance between the mini-tuner buttons.
 
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