Dual-action truss rod system for 12-string models

ladytexan

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I know that not all Guild 12-string models have a dual-action truss rod system. Are there certain models that do/don't (years of production)? Even if your 12-string has a dual-action truss rod, do you still tune down?

Thanks....

Toni
 

wileypickett

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Interesting question.

Every Guild 12-string I have owned (or still own) has the dual truss rod system. (I've had at least a dozen over the years, still have eight -- all Westerly-made.)

I'd assumed Guild always built them this way. (The current New Hartford-made 12s have a single truss rod, with two carbon rods on either side to reinforce the neck.)

When did Guild START making them with two truss rods?

WHen did they STOP?

Were there periods when they didn't build them this way?

Glenn//.
 
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I think you're talking about two different things here. A dual action truss rod:


Spoke_Nut_Hot_Rod_lg.jpg


is not the same thing as two truss rods.

IMG_0776.jpg


~nw
 

ladytexan

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Nigel Wickwire said:
I think you're talking about two different things here. A dual action truss rod:


Spoke_Nut_Hot_Rod_lg.jpg


is not the same thing as two truss rods.

IMG_0776.jpg


~nw
Nigel,

Well, now I know more than I did two hours ago. :) Thanks for the pictures. So what is/are the story(ies) on dual-action and two-truss rod(s) Guilds?

Again, thanks,

Toni
 

fronobulax

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Guild used two truss rods in 12 string guitars for a period of time, unknown to me but probably including most of the Westerly years. They are not using the same scheme on NH built 12's. I too wait for someone to come along who knows.
 
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The two truss rod system in the lower picture is a single action system. String tension pulls the neck in one direction and tightening the nut on the truss rod(s) puts tension the other way- against string tension. This configuration was a hallmark on Guild twelves for a number of years.

A double action truss rod allows you to adjust the tension in either direction, regardless of how the strings pull. I think the idea is to allow better control of neck relief. I don't know that I've ever seen this system done in a twin truss rod set up - Guild or otherwise.

Older Guild twelve strings used the former system. Later Guild twelve strings use the latter system. I'm not sure which models and which years fall into either category. There are others here that do, though.

It's kind of like the difference between a single action and double action revolver. Being from Texas, you should understand that :wink:

~nw
 

chazmo

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The changeover from dual (single-action) truss rods to a single, dual-action rod flanked by fixed carbon rods happened in 2008 in Tacoma. That change order carried over into New Hartford.

[edit: actually, I might be slightly off on this... I know they changed to a single rod with carbon flanking rods in 2008, but I do think the New Hartford guys told us about some other change since then... Maybe the first single-rod system in Tacoma wasn't a double-action rod. The latest/greatest is below, as per my F-212XL:

IMG_2779.jpg


IMG_2777.jpg
 
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Thanks for the update, Chaz. I find the detailed inside shot of the TRC to be very interesting. Guild/FMIC actually felt the need to point out the type of truss rod, in use. Perhaps a back-handed nod to their former twin truss rod heritage.

~nw
 

Scratch

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Toni,
Guild's dual truss rod system is unique in the 12 string world and distinguishes Guild from other crafters. Dual truss rods were incorporated in all Guild 12 string models until the move to NH. IMO, the dual truss rods signify Guild's early identity as the standard in 12 string guitars. I've owned many, many 12 string guitars; five respected brands (Guild, Martin, Taylor, Breedlove, Epiphone). The only ones I've kept are Westerly Guilds with dual truss rods. They stand the test of time...

Many years ago, I absolutely ruined one (not a Guild) by tuning it to concert (440) pitch and neglecting it for almost two years. It is now a fine wall hanger art piece.

I keep my Guild 12ers tuned down a full step (to 'D') and capo up two frets to achieve concert. Putting a capo on the second fret is an easy thing to do. Dual truss rods; stepped down to D. Sleep well at night...
 

steamfurnace

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Guild may have been unique with the dual truss rods for acoustic 12's; but Rickenbacker has been using dual truss rods for years in their electrics.
 

chazmo

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Scratch said:
Toni,
Guild's dual truss rod system is unique in the 12 string world and distinguishes Guild from other crafters. Dual truss rods were incorporated in all Guild 12 string models until the move to NH. IMO, the dual truss rods signify Guild's early identity as the standard in 12 string guitars. I've owned many, many 12 string guitars; five respected brands (Guild, Martin, Taylor, Breedlove, Epiphone). The only ones I've kept are Westerly Guilds with dual truss rods. They stand the test of time...

Many years ago, I absolutely ruined one (not a Guild) by tuning it to concert (440) pitch and neglecting it for almost two years. It is now a fine wall hanger art piece.

I keep my Guild 12ers tuned down a full step (to 'D') and capo up two frets to achieve concert. Putting a capo on the second fret is an easy thing to do. Dual truss rods; stepped down to D. Sleep well at night...
Hey, Ken,

The problem on the one you ruined... was it a warped neck (that trusses couldn't compensate for), or was it shifting of the neck block (neck reset stuff), or both? I'm only curious because I wonder what the role of the truss rods was in the failure. No argument that the dual truss rods have stood the test of time, though -- I remember we were all REALLY surprised with they made that change in Tacoma, especially when we knew their days were numbered. The only issue I had with the truss rods was that I've seen a lot Guild necks with "railroad tracks" of cracked wood/finish where the rods are. I've never known if this was misuse of the rods or just a natural side-effect of using the rods to compensate for warpage.
 

Scratch

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Hey Charlie,
It was my beloved ole Epiphone FT165 Texan. Pam got it for me shortly after I returned from overseas in the early 70s. Not an expensive guitar, obviously, but a very sentimental attachment placed upon it, and it was my main/only guitar for many years. I played off and on in those days and it was pure neglect on my part to have left it tuned without use for two years in the mid-nineties.

Result was that the top caved in around the soundhole. Perhaps part of the reason why I'm now so anal about taking care of the gits. Heck, I can't sleep if I failed to wipe 'em down after each use. :? :?

Tex still resides in his case or at times adorns the wall. I'll try to get some pics.
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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With the change to a single dual action truss rod, isn't the new necks slimmer and easier to play?
I believe that is why Guild made the change.
I haven't played one myself but I sure want to.
 

chazmo

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Scratch said:
Hey Charlie,
It was my beloved ole Epiphone FT165 Texan. Pam got it for me shortly after I returned from overseas in the early 70s. Not an expensive guitar, obviously, but a very sentimental attachment placed upon it, and it was my main/only guitar for many years. I played off and on in those days and it was pure neglect on my part to have left it tuned without use for two years in the mid-nineties.

Result was that the top caved in around the soundhole. Perhaps part of the reason why I'm now so anal about taking care of the gits. Heck, I can't sleep if I failed to wipe 'em down after each use. :? :?

Tex still resides in his case or at times adorns the wall. I'll try to get some pics.
Ah, got it, Ken. Sorry to hear about that, and understood about the sentimental attachment!

IN the spirit of commiserating, I have two guitars -- a Favilla classical that belonged to my mom and on which I learned, and an Ibanez 12 that I bought new in 1981 as my first new guitar -- to which I have strong sentimental attachments. I damaged these two guitars from dehydration by leaving them alone/unplayed through a few New England winters. Fortunately, neither suffered expensive neck / soundboard damage, so my luthier was able to put them back to perfect playable condition (albeit with soundboards and bodies scarred from the cracks).
 

chazmo

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Taylor Martin Guild said:
With the change to a single dual action truss rod, isn't the new necks slimmer and easier to play?
I believe that is why Guild made the change.
I haven't played one myself but I sure want to.
I think the nut width and neck profile on the Traditional Series 12s are the same as they used to be, but I wouldn't swear to it. I do think the (new) configuration gives them more flexibility to do a thinner neck if they want to, though...

I'm not 100% what motivated the change, TMG. I do know that the way this used to work at the time that necks changed to a single truss rod is that a trusted luthier "owned" the Guild brand's products and dictated these changes, which ultimately became change-orders for the Tacoma factory to implement. I do not know when the change was ordered, only that Tacoma started shipping products with the change in 2008.

FYI, the backlog of these change-orders in Tacoma is one of the reasons Fender made the decision to move Guild to New Hartford. This is partly related to the fact that New Hartford has a machine shop for building tools/jigs/fixtures that can keep up with the pace of product development and change-orders.
 

ladytexan

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As usual, a question asked is a question answered. Thanks so much for all of the good, helpful info. Although I don't own a 12-string, I've often wondered about the truss rod configuration(s).

Ken and Charlie, thanks for the stories. :)

Toni
 

idealassets

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the difference between a single action and double action revolver. Being from Texas, you should understand that
Yes, being from Texas may help with it, but you can be from somewhere else and get the picture on that also. But I'd like to be in Texas sometime just so's I could get the feeling of wearing a .357 on my hip.

BTW most folks may not know it, but the state of Mass is still unhappy that 2 Kennedy's were shot down. So there is a huge billbosrd at the state line telling you how much that you better not get caught with any gun of any kind in your car after driving across.

Craig
 

idealassets

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Guild/FMIC actually felt the need to point out the type of truss rod, in use. Perhaps a back-handed nod to their former twin truss rod heritage
Hmm, thats odd I now own 2 New Hartford F512's, and neither one came with that sticker on my TRC.
 

idealassets

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isn't the new necks slimmer and easier to play?
No, because the neck still needs to be wide enough to hold the two grahpite reinforcing rods.

Aside from that, I have grown accustomed to playing the "wide" Guild 12 string neck, and like it as my standard guitar to play.
 
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