Drum question

[ruedi]

I know very well that this is a guitar forum - nevertheless I have hope that I can be helped here, so please allow me to describe the following problem to you. Maybe someone who knwos about drums can help out?

My two children (6 and 8 years) have now attended basic music lessons for one year and will start with drum lessons after the summer holidays. Now I'm faced with the task of buying them a drum kit. I would like to go on the hunt for a good drumkit in used condition. My budget is around 500 CHF which equals about 528 USD as of today.
After reading up on the subject and talking to the drum teacher, I know roughly what I want. The bass drum should be 16" or 18", so the toms can be reached by the kids. As I understand, the drum skins are consumables (equivalent to guitar strings). What really matters and therefore needs close inspection is the state of the hardware.

I now have found three ads on a local marketplace I would like to share with you. Maybe someone can take a look and give some advise? This would be highy appreciated!

1. Sonor

2. Remo

3. PDP by DW

Thank you!

 

[Stuball48]

Ruedi
Know, absolutely, nothing about drums but will say I know about kids having taught and coached and involved with well over 10, 000 in a forty year teaching career. DO NOT surprise them. Even at ages 6 and 8 let them be a part of the buying process. You will make the final decision but they will, more than likely, appreciate your confidence in their input on this purchase.

 

[fronobulax]

I'm no help. I do agree with the advice about involving the kids in the decision and the teacher might also be asked to provide an opinion.

I'll also add the general advice that it is the play-ability of the first instrument that is most important. If the child is fighting the instrument then they will get frustrated. If they like what they are doing and improve they time will come when they move on to something of their own choosing for somewhat specific reasons. I don't really understand the ergonomics of drum kits but if things are too big, heavy, hard to adjust or unstable that is probably not going to help.

 

[Nuuska]

Grüetzi

If possible - I would go and see them all - listen to cymbals - good ones cost fortune, so if they sound ok - tuning the drums to liking is no big deal - after you get the set I can instruct you more on tuning.

I did some quick research at www.thomann.de - and Sonor might have best value of those three - I have children-set, which I made of old Premier - pr 1967 - 20inch bass drum - Tama 10x5,5 snare drum - old Premier bongos for ride toms - plus Sonor toms for floor tom - 8x8 & 10x9

Then I did some metalwork on snare stand to make it go lower - and now it can be set so that snare upper head is 19 inch from floor.

Cymbals were collected with time from here and there - I even took some abandoned cymbals with ripped edges - cut them smaller to be round again - then hammered them to get sounding again . . .

Result is a set, that can be played by someone only 4 feet tall comfortably - and grown person can handle them, too - and they are real drums - they sound good. Plus methinks the set looks funky.

 

[walrus]

+1 on getting kids involved in any purchase of a musical instrument.

walrus

 

[ruedi]

Thanks guys for your answers and thoughts!

Nuuska this drumset looks very cool, good job! Thank you for sharing! I'm sure I will have more questions as soon as a drum set is in our house

The drum teachers opinion: Go for the Sonor. The PDP by DW is too expensive, and Remo as a drum trademark is unknown to him, so he can not assess. (Remo is only known to him as a manufacturer of drum skins, not of drums).

Frono you're absolutely right, playability is crucial for a first instrument for the reasons you mentioned. Important point!

Stuball48, wow, more than 10'000 kids?! You must have gathered a lot of experience and wisdom over the years!
Don't worry, I will not surprise the kids. I want this to be their project, not mine! Too many parents project their wishes into their kids, resulting in mutual frustration and worse... Plus, my son is diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, so we try to avoid every kind of surprise. Things go best when we plan and try to anticipate as much as possible. So yes, the kids ar fully involved

 

[crank]

I play a bit and have a kit set up at home for my drummers to use.

Cheap hardware is fine these days. 30 or 40 years ago not so much, but, nowadays even the cheapest kits have decent hardware that does it's job holding stuff in place and not falling apart or loosening up all the time.

Cheap cymbals can sound not so good but you don't need to rush out and get good ones right off the bat.

The only thing that really effects playability, aside from kit's geometry, is the bass drum pedal. A great one is great a crappy one is really hard to use and limiting. My cheap CB kit has an amazingly good kick pedal. So good my drummer wants to trade me for it.

Drum heads last for years. I know some guys who change them every year and some who have not changed them in 20 years.

An aside: My sister spent $600+ for a used Pearl kit for my niece. They collected dust in the basement for a few years until they sold them for about half what they paid. Happens all the time - don't spend a lot.

 

[Guildedagain]

What they said, up above.

I'm not so sure I'd let the kids decide, not for me, because you're the one who's going top be listening to these things, especially the cymbals.

Buy old Zildians/Sabians, can probably be found on eBay still.

Buy real drums. Drums don't get their tone from the hardware, but from the wood/construction of the shells, and the quality of the bearing edges, and the heads/rims, but mostly shells/edges.

Try to find an old set, and yes, Sonor DE, should be lots of Sonor in yr area, as well as maybe Premier UK, and maybe old US drums like Ludwig, Slingerland, Rogers.

Older TAMA drums are excellent.

For hardware, I like older stuff too. Ludwig Speed King is still my favorite.

A minimalist kit like a small Jazz or Bebop kit should be perfect for children, and can be grown into.

I've alway had drums, and kids sound great on great drums and cymbals in particular.

Cheap drums still sound like drums, although missing little things like decent tone, projection and resonance, but cheap cymbals on the other hand should be folded in half and tossed into the metals pile.

 

[jp]

Hey Ruedi -

I can fake my way on drums through most simple tunes and lived with a drummer throughout my working musician years, so I've gained some know-how here and there. I also bought a kit for basic recording but mostly for my kids to learn. Both have become pretty competent drummers on it. Here's some suggestions I can offer. Nuuska touched on some of these.

• Kids grow really fast, and I advocate against buying a kid-sized set. You want a set that they can grow into as teens, after which they can upgrade themselves if they get serious . If you can, find a set with a 20" bass drum, not a 16" or 18". It's the perfect size for them to grow into. They'll need at least one mounted tom and one floor. Another mounted tom is a bonus, but they can learn basics with two and a decent snare. The PDP set is a perfect starter configuration. It's best to find a small adult sized kit that can be adjusted down to kid size. Also, I imagine you want to make as few purchases as possible vs upgrading pieces parts, it's worth it to spend a little more now, rather than constantly looking for upgrades. If they take to it, they can do that themselves later--esp. cymbals--as long as they have a decent a starter base.
• Most shell sets can be made to sound pretty decent with tuning but good heads do matter. Think of them like tires on a car. They are replaceable but costly, so look for a set with the heads in the most decent shape possible.
• Just make sure the hardware is beefy and solid and holds everything stable. The most important parts are the snare stand and a decent high hat stand that works well, and a good working bass drum pedal. Oh, and the throne, of course. Nuuska is also correct in that you should make sure the high hat stand and snare stand adjust low enough for your youngest.
• Nuuska is right on about cymbals. They are the most costly part of the set, and make sure the basic three sound decent: high hats, one crash, one decent ride. You won't go wrong with good brand name, used beginner series -- Zildjian, Paiste, Sabian, or Meinl.
• I think both the Sonor and the PDP set look decent, and I think both seem to fulfill what I express above, although the bass drums look bigger. Not a deal breaker, though. The PDP seems like the set someone bought to learn but never did, and it has fresher heads. Just needs some simple dampening for the heads, like foam rings, Moon Gel, or simple electrical tape over pieces of sponge or foam.
• Also see this video:
• Learning to tune drums is good for kids to learn as well. My 17-year old son made our budget shell kit sound incredibly good.

Good luck! Let us know how it turns out!

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

I don't have much to add to the conversation/desicion but I do have a drum story. I have a soft spot for Sonor drums. If anybody read my "blog" GoG' path to Bardom, they'll see that my father bought a set of German made Sonors for my brother around 1965. After flailing away on them and then giving them up we sold them to a friend of mine when he was 16 or so around 1978. He has keep the set and his son learned to play on them? As far as I know they are still going and possibly headed to the next generation.

Sonors are not well know but are sure well made!

 

[AcornHouse]

Looks like you already have the kit advice. I would like to chime in on the cymbals; yes, old Zildjans are great, but you have what may be an advantage: you live in the home of Paiste, who make the cymbals of choice of so many pros. While the best 2002s may cost $150-? apiece, you might find some deals on their second tier models.

 

[ruedi]

Wow, thanks again everyone for contributing, I appreciate very much! So much drum knowledge around here

The seller of the Sonor mailed me, he has someone come by tomorrow to check it out. If it is not sold in the process, he will contact me again.
PDP by DW seller did not write back. Let's wait.... The seller of the Remo wrote back and offered quite detailled information, I will go to his place tomorrow and take a look. Will keep you up to date

Just to avoid any misunderstandings: The decision to which drum kit I buy is entirely up to me. But I want the kids to be involved in the process.

Thanks again! To be continued....

 

[Nuuska]

And now ...................................................................... a DRUMROLL

 

[SFIV1967]

Remo drum shells are made from a material they call "Acousticon"... "they are formed using wood-pulp and resin... or to use a less romantic vernacular... saw dust and glue. But how do they sound? Generally, pretty good. What makes a drum work has little to do with the specific material used in the construction, but rather the roundness, thickness, density, and hardness of the shell...and of course the bearing-edge. Assuming the shells are in-round, and the bearing-edges in good shape, there is no reason those drums won't sound great with proper heads and tuning."

Source: https://www.pearldrummersforum.com/showthread.php?241991-Remo-Acousticon

Ralf

 

[ruedi]

Bulletin: we went to see the Remo today. It turned out that for a certain episode in brand history, Remo did also drum sets. This one here is from the 80ies. I like it a lot because it is vintage, high quality (as far as I can tell). Hardware is heavy and built to last forever, really sturdy. The snare is actually a Ludwig from the late 70ies. Everything is in a used, but well maintainded condition. The pedals for bass drum and hi-hat are running smoothly. Cymbals sound decent in my ears. But: big problem in the literal sense: the bass drum is 24 inch!! There was a misunderstanding, so I assumed a smaller size in the first place... I don't see a way to make this work for my little daughter. I think the toms are just too high, and everything is too far apart with this big thing in between. She is 117 cm tall (three feet ten inches). Is there any setup that could work for her? or should I just forget about this set? Thanks in advance!

 

[AcornHouse]

That’s why they don’t let little kids drive. If you boost they seats to see out the window, they can’t reach the pedals; and vice versa. Same thing here. You could put her on a stool to reach the toms, then she won’t be able to reach the bass drum and hi-hat pedals.

 

[Default]

At one of the LMG's, a fellow showed up with a low volume drum kit with the bass drum made out of a hard suitcase. Sounded pretty good. So, you buy the good kit, and make do with a suitcase until she grows, or you buy a smaller bass drum until she grows into the good bass drum?

 

[Guildedagain]

The Remo sound like awesome drums. Rare huge bass drum, valuable but a little overkill for this scenario, unless dad gets into the drums ;]

 

[jp]

As long as the high hat, throne, and snare can be lowered, you could tighten up the layout if you got rid of the middle size tom to pull in all pieces closer. If that can't work, then I think it's better to wait for a better-sized kit. Trying to find another bass drum that fits the hardware mount for the Remo toms can become a wild goose chase.

 

[gilded]

I don't play drums, which is why I own a Ludwig set from the '50s and another Ludwig set from the '70s.

My Advice:

Get something they can play Jazz with later, like an 8-lug wooden Snare (it won't penetrate the walls of your house as much a metal snare; you'll thank me in the years to come), 12" Ride Tom, 14" Floor Tom, 18" Kick. You don't need more to learn. And yeah, get the drum teacher to teach them how to use brushes!

You're on your own on the cymbals, but you can buy cheap cymbal packs and move up from there.

Remo Ambassadors are good heads. They don't sound like thudding metal-rock heads, but maybe the kids will dig it anyway.

My own drummer gets the big oil-filled heads that sound like muffled shite! When he gets tired of them, I slip some Ambassadors and he's happy until they wear out....

Sonors were bad to start with in the '50s and '60s (an American opinion) and cost too much later when they got good. Premiers were considered a good european kit by the Texas R&B and Blues drummers I have known since the '80s, but they all said that the Premier heads were a 1/2" different than American drum kit heads... say, you don't suppose they were trying to keep people from using drums that weren't made by Premiers suppliers, do you?

Good luck!