D25 French Polish

[Mingus]

A little background. . .

My friend and I are both in the same boat when it comes to our instruments. Tone and looks are majorly important. There's no room in our hearts for "road worn," "battle scars," etc. Resale value isn't of MUCH importance to us. When we buy an instrument, we have little intention of EVER selling it. They're like children!

Anyhow, my friend just called up to tell me that he's getting his D25 french polished! He just had one of his old classicals done and loved it so much that he sent out his D25. No idea what year, but it's definitely a Westerly and definitely arch backed.

Anybody have any thoughts on this? Any idea what the sounds difference would be??

-James

 

[fronobulax]

Anyhow, my friend just called up to tell me that he's getting his D25 french polished! He just had one of his old classicals done and loved it so much that he sent out his D25. No idea what year, but it's definitely a Westerly and definitely arch backed.

First, welcome.
Second, I've never heard of "french polish". I infer from here and other places that it is a way of applying shellac. That suggests to me something akin to refinishing which, given my preference for "vintage" is a pretty big "no-no". That aside, if all I had to go by was the web I would expect the sound to be more "natural", possibly louder and with increased sustain. But hey, you can Google "french polish" and draw a different conclusion.

This post is a placeholder until someone who knows what they are talking about shows up or someone comes and hijacks the thread.

 

[Mingus]

I guess I shouldn't have assumed that most people here would know what that is. You are right. French polish is a way of applying shellac. It is applied in very thin coats and "polished" as it goes on. It's not a very difficult process, but it's very time consuming. It's most often found on much older (pre '20s) instruments and most fine classical guitars. It usually ends up sounding better on an instrument because of the very thin layers. This is why high end classical guitars are usually finished this way. The nylon strings and low tension are helped out by the thin finish to vibrate the top.

Anyhow. . .my post here was mainly to see if anyone had ever heard a steel string with french polish before. It struck me as odd when my buddy called me up to tell me this today. I have to imagine that the instrument will sound a lot fuller. . .and I hope at least as pleasing as the guitar was before!

Thanks for the welcome! I've been lurking here awhile (in the market for a D25. . .the right one hasn't come along yet!. . .anyone got a killer deal??) but this was my first dive into posting! Thanks for the response, though.

-James

 

[mel_g51]

How about asking this guy??

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-73-Guild-D-2 ... dZViewItem

Mel.

 

[Guildmark]

From what I heard talking to Frank Ford once (Gryphon Stringed Instruments, Palo Alto, CA) James Goodall applies a French polish to many of his steel string dreads. But not many others do. It is popular on high-end classicals, as mingus2112 tells us, but rare on steel stringers. Just too much labor (cost) to apply it. And it is not nearly as durable as most modern finishes, so if you don't want any dings, scratches or aesthetic liabilities, it is not a favorable choice. Repairing a French polish requires as much effort as the original application. But it sounds like the ming man has a very enviable showcase environment, so maybe it's not a bad idea. There could be some tonal improvement, and the look is awesome.

Thanks for posting, mingus2112!

 

[Mingus]

How about asking this guy??
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-73-Guild-D-2 ... dZViewItem
Mel.

Interesting!!

And it is not nearly as durable as most modern finishes, so if you don't want any dings, scratches or aesthetic liabilities, it is not a favorable choice. Repairing a French polish requires as much effort as the original application.

This is true! This is why it immediately scared me. I'm very particular with my instruments. A friend of mine (different friend) had his french polish ruined by someone while repairing a top crack.

But it sounds like the ming man has a very enviable showcase environment, so maybe it's not a bad idea.

Please understand that while I have an enviable VOLUME of instruments (over 20. . .I lost count!), I don't exactly have what I'd call an "enviable showcase." I'm mostly an electric collector, and most of my instruments are of recent vintage. A lot of '90s instruments. The only actual "vintage" gear that I have is a 1967 Fender Bassman head, 1957 Ampeg Gemeni clone and an old Mussi Accordian. My music room is a basement recording studio in my house that gets used quite a bit. . .so at this point in my life (29, just married), a french polished instrument scares me! My friend, on the other hand, is 56, married, full time guitar teacher, doesn't gig anymore, thinking about retirement and has a second floor "music room" with guitars on the wall. If anyone has the showcase, it's him! He's got the acoustic collection. Only one Guild, however (the reason I started looking for a D25 to begin with!), and that's the instrument he's getting refinished.

It will hang on the wall (when unplayed) in a climate controlled room and be played only by him IN that room. . .so I don't think damage is an issue. More of a sound concern!

-James

 

[Tres]

I assume he is going to have the old finish stripped off first-- otherwise, you are just making the finish thicker! ;-)

I know that many top classical guitars of old were French polished. It is a very thin finish, so it lets the wood vibrate alot. But it is very labor intensive and, hence, expensive.

Some big acoustic manufacturers (like Collings) are now offering varnish finishes on their guitars with the idea that it is a thinner finish and will sound better. Reports about these guitars are very enthusiastic. And most of the nicest mandolins are varnish finished.

One thing to consider though is that a nitrocellulous finish thins over time and contributes to that great dry "vintage" tone. Depending on how old your friend's D-25 is, it may strip away some of the "old " sound to have it refinished.

Tres
Atlanta, GA

 

[Mingus]

One thing to consider though is that a nitrocellulous finish thins over time and contributes to that great dry "vintage" tone. Depending on how old your friend's D-25 is, it may strip away some of the "old " sound to have it refinished.

Good point! I would assume, though, that the french polished finish will be just as thin as the nitro. I've just got my fingers crossed that it comes back sounding as good or better! My friend plays with .010s on all of his acoustics, which is why I think this is going to make a big difference. I think he'll get a lot more resonance out of the top if the finish is thinner.

Plus. . .it's a good story!! I'll try to get some before and after shots!

-James

 

[Tres]

.10's on an acoustic? Wow! I know people who don't even play .10's on electric-- preferring .11's! He needs top throw some .12's or .13's on there and get some sound out of that box! ;-)

In all seriousness though, properly set up, a guitar can play as easy as you please with light gauge strings (.12's). He really should try it. I'll bet the sound difference will be pronounced.

Tres

 

[Mingus]

He needs top throw some .12's or .13's on there and get some sound out of that box! ;-)

I know you were half kidding, but in all seriousness, he plays what he plays.

In all seriousness though, properly set up, a guitar can play as easy as you please with light gauge strings (.12's).

And one can also argue that a properly MADE acoustic sounds great with any gauge strings! I play .011s on my acoustics. To me, I feel that that is the best sound I can get out of my acoustics for my playing style. I play with my fingers. I'm classically trained, but do plenty of strumming. I use my right index nail as a pick. I have a pretty light touch, like my action low and my intonation perfect. Super straight necks are my friend. The action on my Tokai love rock is so low, that another friend of mine buzzes over most of the fingerboard when he plays. On electrics, I use MOSTLY .011s as well, but use .012s on one of my Strats and an Ibanez hollowbody I have. I also use .010s on one of my teles and both of my six string Danelectros. Again, I have a certain touch. . .and certain instruments like a certain tension. There's a whole balance going on with your playing style and the instrument!

My friend is also Classically trained. He is not the strumming type at all. The difference is that he's got an even LIGHTER touch. He's been playing 50 years. . .and professionally nearly as long. (Full time teacher, studio musician) His style is pretty much a step up from classical. . .but on steel string. I've played his instruments (besides the guilds he has some late '60s Martins) and, while the strings are a little light for me, they're very playable and they sound phenomenal. Would .010s sound good on a modern beginner type guitar?. . .with a thick top. . .thick lacquer. . .lots of bracing? Probably not. But on those old Guilds and Martins they sing!

-James

 

[sausgirl]

Hi great thread.
I worked as a violin makers apprentice for 3 years, and french polished quite a few instruments.
It is a way of polishing an instrument by applying a thin layer of shellac and oil to make a beautiful shine.
It is time and labor consuming.It doesn't make a hard finish like nitro,but looks like a mirror finish.
Mostly used now in string instruments and classical guitars.
In fact I am getting ready to polish my Teller (German) Classical guitar.
Jan

 

[sitka_spruce]

Great finish, French Polish. Got it on my steel string Sigurdson and it's like it makes the tone grow.

 

[Tres]

And one can also argue that a properly MADE acoustic sounds great with any gauge strings!

Hey-- whatever works for him. You're talking to a bluegrass player here. They run us out on a rail if we show up with anything less than .13's!

Tres

 

[sitka_spruce]

And one can also argue that a properly MADE acoustic sounds great with any gauge strings!

Hey-- whatever works for him. You're talking to a bluegrass player here. They run us out on a rail if we show up with anything less than .13's!

Tres

I pretty much agree to the above statement. Also acoustic strings are for driving the top of an acoustic guitar. The larger the soundboards used for a top usually the heavier gauge you'll want. A Guild 6-string dreadnought would require .012s to achieve any substantial sound volume and saturation.

With electric guitars it's the iron of the strings that drive the pickups, not the guitar as such.