D1212 12 string nut replacement options

[Boneman]

Hi all,

I've been loving the D1212 since I got it, but now since I'm working on learning to play ELP's Still You Turn Me On, I'm beginning to feel like the octave string being on the top is hampering the true sound of what this 12 string ought to be. If picking downward the first note you hear is the high octave, and it sounds off. When I strum upward and hit the normal E string first, much better. Pretty much same thing on Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here, and all other well known sounding songs you try to emulate. I'd rather not have to pick upwards on the low E string, so I think I want to replace the nut. It was suggested to fill the larger slot with baking soda and CA, and then refile both slots accordingly. Maybe even do that on the A strings too, or of course file a new nut from a blank. Using baking soda and glue sounds like a temporary fix, and not applicable for me. While I can certainly carve a fresh one from a blank, it sounds daunting at the moment, and I may have to resort to that but I'd rather just buy one and swap it out quicker. I see the ones for sale at guildguitars.com have the octave on top as well so that does me no good:

Nut for 12-String Models - 1 13/16" Width | Guild Guitars

Replacement 12-String Slotted Bone Nut for 1 13/16″ Nut Width

shop.guildguitars.com

My question is does Guild or anyone else make a 12 string bone nut replacement for that model that already has the normal strings on top?

I'm also curious, like when did they change to this arrangement? And why did they opt to put the skinny string on top anyway? I'd venture to guess 99% of people that first strum a guitar strum downward. Why would you want that higher shimmery note to play first?

 

[Brad Little]

AFAIK, that is the way all 12s were strung until Rickenbacher reversed them for their iconic electric 12. IMHO, if they were reversed on an acoustic 12, the octaves would get lost. I've been playing 12 string for almost 60 years, and I hear the two strings as one sound, not separate. YMMV, but that's my take.
That said, try it. I think you'll have to either make or have made a new nut, probably not too much money. As long as you save the original, easy to revert.

 

[wileypickett]

A lot depends on how hard you play, or how much follow-through you put on the strings. You don't want to just meet the string; you want to play "through" them. When you do I suspect you'll hear the octave and main strings as one "thing," as Brad notes.

I once switched my octaves, my reasoning being the same as yours: I figured it would bring out the bass more. Within a couple weeks or so I changed back. Why? Because reversing the octave and main strings didn't exphasize the bass, as I thought it would, and it had the effect of making the guitar not sound like a 12-string somehow. The octave strings first seems to be what gives a 12-string its characteristic sound.

There are players who prefer them switched, Doyle Dykes being one, and I guess all those Rickenbacker players. (Rickenbacker must make 12-string replacement nuts, no? I agree with you -- someone should, so people can experiment!)

The problem I'm guessing is that nuts are rarely interchangeable without some modification -- thickness, height, or string spacing will likely have to be tweaked, so maybe the demand for such nuts is seen as minimal?

The best option might be to have your luthier make a modified nut to fit your guitar.

But if you go that route, have him / her seat it with minimal glue so you can switch back if you decide that "bass-first" sound is not what you wanted after all. I used glue-stick on my temporary one -- sufficient to hold it in place, but easy to remove.

 

[Boneman]

Awesome feedback, thank you both. I suspected I would have to make a custom one if I were to try the theory out. Definitely not going the baking soda CA route because to Wiley’s point I would prefer to go back to my original if I didn’t like it after all. Now hearing both your thoughts on the matter, it’s probably just me and maybe I just need to tweak my technique, pick attack angle adjustment or what not to get past it. Or I’ll probably get started on a blank for a test run to satisfy my curiosity and work on my nut filing skills in the process. Maybe. Lol. Cheers!

 

[Bernie]

It might be too that the guitar was poorly set-up...Did you buy it new from an online shop ? It might need an appropriate set-up from a luthier who knows well 12 strings guitars...I bet in quite a few shops, unexperienced players wouldn't be able to know what a proper set-up should be like ; different instrument in many ways, and one can be a good guitar player without having much experience of 12 strings... If the hight of one of of the two strings ain't quite right, such things as you described could happen... One more thing, observe how in this video, changing technique (finger style then using a pick) makes the result sound quite different www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU4G8HpsKNU

 

[Bernie]

Hi all,

I've been loving the D1212 since I got it, but now since I'm working on learning to play ELP's Still You Turn Me On, I'm beginning to feel like the octave string being on the top is hampering the true sound of what this 12 string ought to be. If picking downward the first note you hear is the high octave, and it sounds off. When I strum upward and hit the normal E string first, much better. Pretty much same thing on Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here, and all other well known sounding songs you try to emulate. I'd rather not have to pick upwards on the low E string, so I think I want to replace the nut.
I'm also curious, like when did they change to this arrangement? And why did they opt to put the skinny string on top anyway? I'd venture to guess 99% of people that first strum a guitar strum downward. Why would you want that higher shimmery note to play first?

If you look carefully to this video, it seems to me that Dave's Gilmour's partner here does start picking upward his 12 strings www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFvW9hGUe9s... On the other hand, David Gilmour on his Guild here, seems to be picking downward it seems www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ0nPBRbXLM (@ about 0'38")...

 

[Boneman]

It might be too that the guitar was poorly set-up...Did you buy it new from an online shop ? It might need an appropriate set-up from a luthier who knows well 12 strings guitars...I bet in quite a few shops, unexperienced players wouldn't be able to know what a proper set-up should be like ; different instrument in many ways, and one can be a good guitar player without having much experience of 12 strings... If the hight of one of of the two strings ain't quite right, such things as you described could happen... One more thing, observe how in this video, changing technique (finger style then using a pick) makes the result sound quite different www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU4G8HpsKNU

I think the guitar is setup fine straight from the shop, so I haven’t done anything more than merely play it. But that video is one I‘ve watched before which helped close the deal and make me get it. He’s a good player and makes it sound great with either playing technique. It just hit me when I was expecting a certain bassier tone on the one note and thought . Then I also watched this video, at about 1:55 in you‘ll hear his reasoning(great guitar too btw)and sorta reinforced the notion: