D-20 Oxnard...Opinions?

midnightright

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Oh, Wow @adorshki - that's a lot, even for me to take in; or "digest!" (Well done, as always. . .) :)

Here's a couple of those links to the 'incorrect?' nut width for the D-20. Unless they're making a different one for the 'Vintage Sunburst,' finish?


(though I now see, this one is for the 'Natural,' one. . !) / unless, it's right. ;)

 

Westerly Wood

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Still, if you are seriously interested in a D20, I suggest you message Mavuser (Eric) as he has 3 D25 flatbacks from the D25 flatback golden era that are all in good shape. He mentioned in a different thread that he would sell 1. And will be a way better deal than a new D20, and then you have a sweet old Guild acoustic all hog flatback that has aged nicely and is not satin finished.
 

chazmo

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I'm not shocked and I would not be surprised to find out that folks in Oxnard don't think the change is significant to the consumer. Folks at LTG might think otherwise.

If you look at the way wood specifications have changed without notice there is precedent for not changing model numbers. I'm thinking of bridges, necks and fretboards and not top, back and sides.
Fro, that's a really valid point. It includes brace material as well, perhaps one of the biggest influencers on sound. OK, I'm no longer shocked. :)
 

fronobulax

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Fro, that's a really valid point. It includes brace material as well, perhaps one of the biggest influencers on sound. OK, I'm no longer shocked. :)
And I could have kept my mouth shut.

There are two issues here - specs can and do change but how much change requires a change in nomenclature? and Cordoba is not especially transparent.

This former Software Configurations Manager is cringing a bit because any change in the product requires a change in the identifier. You can still sell version 1.2 but if a customer asks about 1.2.1768 they should get an answer. Sometimes the thing that changed from 1.2.1767 really is critical to someone :)
 

F312

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😀 Yeah. Gotta admit though, I was guilty of "shooting first" before I remembered to take into account that that article was written in 2016, when Oxnard was just starting production.

I realized that that reviewer may well have been spoon-fed some of that stuff from Cordoba, as it fits with at least a couple of many grievances we've had with 'em since the takeover:

Re the M&T neck joint, Cordoba didn't actually acknowledge that new construction method change "up front". It was discovered here by accident when a pic of a neckblock in a body in process revealed the tell-tale "boltholes".

IIRC correctly it was TXbumper who first caught it, and he was understandably even further angered that they actually initially denied it when he questioned 'me on it, again, "IIRC".
Might have got some details wrong but I'm still quite sure of my memory about the real problem: lack of transparency from Cordoba.

They didn't want to cop to it. So they may have told that reviewer the D20 had a dovetail neck joint.

Also, in '16, D20's did get satin varnish. It was before they were spraying NCL which they were reserving at the time for the higher-end/Traditionals like the F55 and D55.

Where the 1-3/4 nut spec came from for the D20 I don't know, can't recall if that might actually have been the original spec and has also changed, or if perhaps somebody at Oxnard gave the spec for the Westerly Collection D120 , thinking they'd be the same?

Still, one wonders if the reviewer actually played the guitar. One'd think he'd notice the difference between a 1-11/16 and 1-3/4 nut.
Most folks can at least "feel it" whether they have a preference for one or the other, or not.

We saw examples of other spec info errors from 'em early on, such as one member being sent 2 different replacement bridges for his F150, Oxnard not realizing that the original F50, the GADF50, and the later GAD F150 actually had different bridge pin spacings.

Finally, another one of my pet peeves with Cordoba is their revisionist history. Could explain some of that "hogwash", although I think he got the part about Fender ruining Guild from the usual internet myth-mongers.


Still think he was derelict in not performing his due diligence fact-checking though, something I can't abide in a journalist.

There's still flat out incorrect info on Cordoba's Guild web site in the "History and Heritage" page:

"and Bonnie Raitt picks up her first Navarre F-50, which is a new version of the F-50 with rosewood back and sides."
Um, no. The F50 started life with the Navarre name, the rosewood-bodied version was simply the F50R.

"In 1983, the Talking Heads' groundbreaking live concert "Stop Making Sense" is filmed. Lead singer David Byrne uses his solid-body Guild."
Byrne never played a Guild solid body although there's a couple of pics of him playing a different make solid body with what looks very much like a Guild headstock and has even been ID'd as a Guild, though it's not.

What really pisses me of though is that this totally draws attention away from Byrne's well-known love for his F15ce.
Which brings me to my single biggest grievance with 'em: Calling an F48 an F40, and completely ignoring the importance of the 16" jumbo body for Guild, going all the way back to the original F40, and having always been present in the lineup in some form (like the F15ce, one of many "Fxxce" types) in every factory, all the way up until Oxnard.

From their F40 page: "...our jumbo-shaped F-40, made in Southern California...Its predecessor, the F-48 Navarre, was only produced from 1972 to 1976 and original versions are a rare treasure."

Ignoring the fact that there was a 1 year re-issue in '93 IIRC, what's unsaid is that Guild didn't drop models if they sold well.
They dropped 'em if they didn't.

So one kind of suspects the market yawned at a 'hog body17" jumbo back then. And even though at least a couple of members love their Oxnard F40's I suspect it still isn't a formula with real broad appeal.

And now the venerable F40 model name is saddled with confusion about what a real F40 is.

I'll drop my gripes when Oxnard brings back the one true F40 body.. Until then I will never give up the fight.
:mad:
😀
Don't stop now, or is there more to come.

Ralph
 

GGJaguar

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I'll drop my gripes when Oxnard brings back the one true F40 body
I'm with ya! That body shape has some magic. At least there are used F-40s and F-47s from Tacoma and NH with the original body shape the come up for sale from time to time.
 

Westerly Wood

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And on the good ones he used Ej-16 strings.
😀
alas, Drake died in 1974, but you and I both know he was the main guitarist at the time, from 1973 till his untimely death, testing out the new alloy....on his M20.

(me thinks I am crossing a line or skirting one real close here :))
 

Westerly Wood

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Ya know, the worst part of this photo for me is no one realizes the strings on this M20 are EJ16 prototypes...

(oh come on, that is funny...there are so many layers to this joke....oh never mind...)

nick_drake-bryter_layter-frontal.jpg
 

mavuser

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Still, if you are seriously interested in a D20, I suggest you message Mavuser (Eric) as he has 3 D25 flatbacks from the D25 flatback golden era that are all in good shape. He mentioned in a different thread that he would sell 1. And will be a way better deal than a new D20, and then you have a sweet old Guild acoustic all hog flatback that has aged nicely and is not satin finished.
hey, thanks Wood! i'd sell a D-25, if someone wanted one, or keep them all if not. (no that is not a John Madden quote).

have to say the new D-20's are quite nice, also, however. if someone is interested in one of those, u have my stamp of approval. my guitars are fantastic for their age, but far from brand new. they have the old school mahogany though, u can just see it.
 

mavuser

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😀 Yeah. Gotta admit though, I was guilty of "shooting first" before I remembered to take into account that that article was written in 2016, when Oxnard was just starting production.

I realized that that reviewer may well have been spoon-fed some of that stuff from Cordoba, as it fits with at least a couple of many grievances we've had with 'em since the takeover:

Re the M&T neck joint, Cordoba didn't actually acknowledge that new construction method change "up front". It was discovered here by accident when a pic of a neckblock in a body in process revealed the tell-tale "boltholes".

IIRC correctly it was TXbumper who first caught it, and he was understandably even further angered that they actually initially denied it when he questioned 'em on it, again, "IIRC".
Might have got some details wrong but I'm still quite sure of my memory about the real problem: lack of transparency from Cordoba.

They didn't want to cop to it. So they may have told that reviewer the D20 had a dovetail neck joint.

Also, in '16, D20's did get satin varnish. It was before they were spraying NCL which they were reserving at the time for the higher-end/Traditionals like the F55 and D55.

Where the 1-3/4 nut spec came from for the D20 I don't know, can't recall if that might actually have been the original spec and has also changed, or if perhaps somebody at Oxnard gave the spec for the Westerly Collection D120 , thinking they'd be the same?

Still, one wonders if the reviewer actually played the guitar. One'd think he'd notice the difference between a 1-11/16 and 1-3/4 nut.
Most folks can at least "feel it" whether they have a preference for one or the other, or not.

We saw examples of other spec info errors from 'em early on, such as one member being sent 2 different replacement bridges for his F150, Oxnard not realizing that the original F50, the GADF50, and the later GAD F150 actually had different bridge pin spacings.

Finally, another one of my pet peeves with Cordoba is their revisionist history. Could explain some of that "hogwash", although I think he got the part about Fender ruining Guild from the usual internet myth-mongers.

Still think he was derelict in not performing his due diligence fact-checking though, something I can't abide in a journalist.

There's still flat out incorrect info on Cordoba's Guild web site in the "History and Heritage" page:

"and Bonnie Raitt picks up her first Navarre F-50, which is a new version of the F-50 with rosewood back and sides."
Um, no. The F50 started life with the Navarre name, the rosewood-bodied version was simply the F50R.

"In 1983, the Talking Heads' groundbreaking live concert "Stop Making Sense" is filmed. Lead singer David Byrne uses his solid-body Guild."
Byrne never played a Guild solid body although there's a couple of pics of him playing a different make solid body with what looks very much like a Guild headstock and has even been ID'd as a Guild, though it's not.

What really pisses me off though is that this totally draws attention away from Byrne's well-known love for his F15ce.
Which brings me to my single biggest grievance with 'em: Calling an F48 an F40, and completely ignoring the importance of the 16" jumbo body for Guild, going all the way back to the original F40, and having always been present in the lineup in some form (like the F15ce, one of many "Fxxce" types) in every factory, all the way up until Oxnard.

From their F40 page: "...our jumbo-shaped F-40, made in Southern California...Its predecessor, the F-48 Navarre, was only produced from 1972 to 1976 and original versions are a rare treasure."

Ignoring the fact that there was a 1 year re-issue in '93 IIRC, what's unsaid is that Guild didn't drop models if they sold well.
They dropped 'em if they didn't.

So one kind of suspects the market yawned at a 'hog body17" jumbo back then. And even though at least a couple of members love their Oxnard F40's I suspect it still isn't a formula with real broad appeal.

And now the venerable F40 model name is saddled with confusion about what a real F40 is.

I'll drop my gripes when Oxnard brings back the one true F40 body.. Until then I will never give up the fight.
:mad:
😀
and those are it's good points!
 

midnightright

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Yeah, all I'm playing now "acoustically," is an old Yamaha FG 180 (red label). It seems to play and sound quite especially well. And I can't believe how good it sounds when recorded (too!)... Actually- scrolling through Reverb, I'm sort of hard pressed to imagine a find that would top it, just in terms of 'tone.' Which is quite old, or vintage sounding. . . (at least, to my ear!) ;)
 

plaidseason

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The
😀 Yeah. Gotta admit though, I was guilty of "shooting first" before I remembered to take into account that that article was written in 2016, when Oxnard was just starting production.

I realized that that reviewer may well have been spoon-fed some of that stuff from Cordoba, as it fits with at least a couple of many grievances we've had with 'em since the takeover:

Re the M&T neck joint, Cordoba didn't actually acknowledge that new construction method change "up front". It was discovered here by accident when a pic of a neckblock in a body in process revealed the tell-tale "boltholes".

IIRC correctly it was TXbumper who first caught it, and he was understandably even further angered that they actually initially denied it when he questioned 'em on it, again, "IIRC".
Might have got some details wrong but I'm still quite sure of my memory about the real problem: lack of transparency from Cordoba.

They didn't want to cop to it. So they may have told that reviewer the D20 had a dovetail neck joint.

Also, in '16, D20's did get satin varnish. It was before they were spraying NCL which they were reserving at the time for the higher-end/Traditionals like the F55 and D55.

Where the 1-3/4 nut spec came from for the D20 I don't know, can't recall if that might actually have been the original spec and has also changed, or if perhaps somebody at Oxnard gave the spec for the Westerly Collection D120 , thinking they'd be the same?

Still, one wonders if the reviewer actually played the guitar. One'd think he'd notice the difference between a 1-11/16 and 1-3/4 nut.
Most folks can at least "feel it" whether they have a preference for one or the other, or not.

We saw examples of other spec info errors from 'em early on, such as one member being sent 2 different replacement bridges for his F150, Oxnard not realizing that the original F50, the GADF50, and the later GAD F150 actually had different bridge pin spacings.

Finally, another one of my pet peeves with Cordoba is their revisionist history. Could explain some of that "hogwash", although I think he got the part about Fender ruining Guild from the usual internet myth-mongers.

Still think he was derelict in not performing his due diligence fact-checking though, something I can't abide in a journalist.

There's still flat out incorrect info on Cordoba's Guild web site in the "History and Heritage" page:

"and Bonnie Raitt picks up her first Navarre F-50, which is a new version of the F-50 with rosewood back and sides."
Um, no. The F50 started life with the Navarre name, the rosewood-bodied version was simply the F50R.

"In 1983, the Talking Heads' groundbreaking live concert "Stop Making Sense" is filmed. Lead singer David Byrne uses his solid-body Guild."
Byrne never played a Guild solid body although there's a couple of pics of him playing a different make solid body with what looks very much like a Guild headstock and has even been ID'd as a Guild, though it's not.

What really pisses me off though is that this totally draws attention away from Byrne's well-known love for his F15ce.
Which brings me to my single biggest grievance with 'em: Calling an F48 an F40, and completely ignoring the importance of the 16" jumbo body for Guild, going all the way back to the original F40, and having always been present in the lineup in some form (like the F15ce, one of many "Fxxce" types) in every factory, all the way up until Oxnard.

From their F40 page: "...our jumbo-shaped F-40, made in Southern California...Its predecessor, the F-48 Navarre, was only produced from 1972 to 1976 and original versions are a rare treasure."

Ignoring the fact that there was a 1 year re-issue in '93 IIRC, what's unsaid is that Guild didn't drop models if they sold well.
They dropped 'em if they didn't.

So one kind of suspects the market yawned at a 'hog body17" jumbo back then. And even though at least a couple of members love their Oxnard F40's I suspect it still isn't a formula with real broad appeal.

And now the venerable F40 model name is saddled with confusion about what a real F40 is.

I'll drop my gripes when Oxnard brings back the one true F40 body.. Until then I will never give up the fight.
:mad:
😀
F40 "reboot" irks me as well. The original and its various mini-jumbo-ish incarnations are some of my favorite models. I was offered a GF30 for an semi-insane price last year and I've come to regret not buying it. It's the closest I'll come to owning an original F40 with an arched back.
Cordoba, to me has in their attempts to "rectify" perceived confusion in Guild model names, created more confusion. Both Martin and Gibson have confusing model names too, but when there's a legacy attached to those models, you should probably just leave them alone. An F48 is not an F40 Traditional.

My opinion on Fender is nuanced. I think they started with great intentions and probably saved Guild from total collapse. But the brand then suffered from multiple moves which to me, undercut Guild's historic identity. Someone should've maybe considered just spending the money to upgrade the Westerly plant, instead of moving three times and then eventually selling off the brand. They'd mostly brought me back around when they returned to New England. New Hartford, was to me their Gibson like second chance. If Westerly was Kalamazoo (or at least Kalamazoo II) then New Hartford was their Bozeman revival (including some of the same people).

I've played some Cordoba guitars and the quality has been great. But the branding and ad copy is sometimes an attempt to simplify a very confusing history.
 

Westerly Wood

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Yeah, all I'm playing now "acoustically," is an old Yamaha FG 180 (red label). It seems to play and sound quite especially well. And I can't believe how good it sounds when recorded (too!)... Actually- scrolling through Reverb, I'm sort of hard pressed to imagine a find that would top it, just in terms of 'tone.' Which is quite old, or vintage sounding. . . (at least, to my ear!) ;)
Yamaha red label dreads, in good shape, are awesome!
 

Aarfy

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I’ve seen a Y red label fg180 here locally which is pretty beat up but a screaming deal if structurally sound - am interested but think the wife would go crazy 😜
 

Br1ck

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Just to be correct, there was quite a gap in US production, around two years if I recall, before Cordoba got the Oxnard plant up and running. This was when they launched the Westerly Series that was made in China. So in that respect, they did ship all production to China.

As far as specs go, anything on the guitar that marketing can use as a selling feature can and will be used as a beneficial aspect. If it's a dovetail, they will say, if it's nitro lacquer, they will say, if it's Central American mahogany, they will say.

The builders using bolt on necks never bring that to the front and center. And using a mortise and tenon to bring a product to the marketplace at an attractive price isn't a crime. And least we forget, the average buyer doesn't care. Geeks do, yes.
 
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