Concave top on Guild F-512E 12-String Acoustic Electric Guitar

makeuacaster

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This is my failry new Guild F-512E 12-String Acoustic Electric Guitar I've converted (very successfully) to 6 string. I've noticed since I got it that the top has concave shape to it - at and in front of the bridge. It measures right at 1/16". Doesn't seem to change. I forgot to look last time I changed strings. I use D'Addario XT's 12 - 53 and tune down a whole step. Have on all my guitars fdor years. So, I ask you . . . why does it do this? Should there be any concern? And is it something that should be repaired? I have my own answers to these but I'd love hearing all y'all's input! I mean, this is a $5,000 guitar!!!
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Cougar

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I'm certainly not an expert in this area, but ChatGPT informs me:

"Bellying" is a raised or warped top behind the bridge, toward the tail of the guitar. (I think that goes along with some concavity in front of the bridge, like you've measured.)​
Causes:
String tension (especially with heavier gauge strings).​
Aging and drying of wood.​
Inadequate bracing or glue failures.​
High humidity or temperature changes.​
(For you, it just sounds like string tension, probably not the other causes.)​

Is it bad?​

Mild bellying is normal and expected in many acoustic guitars over time.​
(I don't think your bellying is severe, which causes other problems.)​

Remedies:​

Bridge doctor devices (internal reinforcements).​
(I don't think you're at this point, but if and when it gets worse and causes high action or intonation problems, this is a remedy.)​

Unless others contradict me, it sounds like you've got "normal mild bellying." You can probably keep using .012 gauge strings tuned down unless the bellying gets worse. I use .010s on my F512....
 

makeuacaster

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Agreed. I should have mentioned I am a retired luthier and have examined the guitar inside an out. Too new to be aging, Strings are actually a lot lower tension than standard tuning, bracing is all intact. Humidity? Might be a contributer. I'm in a pretty dry climate, summer is averaging 25-30%. But it lights a fire! I'll try rehumidifying it for a day or so and see if there are any changes.
I think it started at the factory some how. ???
 

jedzep

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Stick a 'Kimsey' sponge inside and cardboard cover over the soundhole, and behold the magic of humidification. I had twin top sags on my OM21 and 018 and cured it with these. It's almost certainly too dry. After that, I set up permanent humidification in my guitar room and still top off with the sponge trick. I never case, but always hang my guitars, so need a little nudge in dry times.


QnrUedB.jpg
 

adorshki

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Agreed. I should have mentioned I am a retired luthier and have examined the guitar inside an out. Too new to be aging, Strings are actually a lot lower tension than standard tuning, bracing is all intact. Humidity? Might be a contributer. I'm in a pretty dry climate, summer is averaging 25-30%. But it lights a fire! I'll try rehumidifying it for a day or so and see if there are any changes.
I think it started at the factory some how. ???
It didn't start at the factory except perhaps in that theres an endemic issue with the bracing that "allows" it. That's actually the reaction to the bellying that occurs below the bridge, it's pushing the front edge down into the space in front of the soundhole, and isn't that uncommon. If it was a big problem I suspect I'd remember lot more reports with horror tories, but I don't. Maybe a couple if I really think hard. But these days that gives me brain-aches. :confused:

And yeah, humidity could help with it.
 

jedzep

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It's an interesting problem, having reduced the string tension by half in the conversion. Along with the added factor having tuned down lighter strings, it almost makes me feel that somehow it longs for greater tension, though that's counterintuitive. So much guitar geometry goes over my head.

Maybe Christopher will lend his insight and analysis.
 

adorshki

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It's an interesting problem, having reduced the string tension by half in the conversion.
Actually, since the strings removed were all the light-gauge unwounds, it's not fully half the tension that was removed. Probably closer to only 40%.
GHS and Martin show string tension charts, D'Addario used to too but I couldn't fine 'em last time I looked, but it shouldn't be too hard to calculate the true percentage of lowered tension.

Along with the added factor having tuned down lighter strings, it almost makes me feel that somehow it longs for greater tension, though that's counterintuitive. So much guitar geometry goes over my head.
I did miss that about the lighter strings, but it also occurs to me if it "took a set" under 12-string tension it may well take a while to "bounce back" to original deflection. Again, humidity should help.
 

jedzep

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Looking forward to finding out whatever fixes it.

Now that I think about it, when my tops dropped, I actually removed the strings, put a small tray of water in the sound hole, wrapped them in a big garbage bag, and slid it under the bed. It took a few weeks, if i recall.
 

SydShanshala

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In Colorado I’ve had guitars that dried out to the point of nonfunctionality and the dishing on the tops was never that bad. Those pics look like the top of a 50 year old Kay that sat in a closet for 40 years with heavy strings tuned to pitch that also needs a neck reset :0
 

makeuacaster

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Right . . . the whole things got me scratching my head. I'm trying humidity. Also, the guitar plays beautifully so that dishing doesn't effect the playability. Gonna look at the scalopping again too. Maybe they just overdid it.
 

Boneman

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Its hard for me to tell what’s going on in the pictures with the reflections etc, but if I hear concave, and from the reference of the photo, it sounds as if the top between the bridge and soundhole is sinking in, not bellying.

I noticed that on my JF30-12 and identified a few braces becoming loose. I fixed those and humidified it, no issues since. I’d say to double check your braces running alongside the bridge plate to make sure they are solididly attached.
 

kostask

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This entirely speculation on my part, so feel free to tell me I am an idiot should the need arise.

This is the guitar that had the broken truss rod, right? That truss rod appeared to have a failed weld/solder joint/weak metal? Later came into Makeuacaster's able hands?

It seems to me that whatever previous yahoo/moron/description of some person who is truly clueless aka revious owner) probably strung it up with an overly (as in grossly oversized) large 12 string set of some type, maybe even a custom set of his own choice made of individual strings, as opposed to a standard packaged 12 string set. This 12 string set was put on the guitar for some unknown period of time (probably tuned to standard), and the neck started to bow forward. Said moron sees this (probably action was completely unplayable after some time) and starts cranking on the truss rod. The truss rod, not being designed to counteract that much string tension, breaks (as this one did, possibly adjusting it with the guitar still tuned up). Truss rod probably has some amount of over-design because the factory/guitar designer never knows what strings people will put on. While the guitar was strung up, and the neck had started to forward bow, tries to pull the bridge up because of the screwed up geometry. This ends up depressing the soundboard in front of the bridge, and prossibly causing bellying behind the bridge.

Open to criticism at any point. But, keep in mind that F512s' (or any other Guild 12 strings, for that matter) truss rods do not have an history of breaking. Nor do they have any history of sound board depression/bellying any more than most other brand guitars, either. We have seen issues with bridges starting to lift off of the sound board (glue failure and execution issues at the factory), but I will assume that Makeuacaster is not seeing that, as he is not reporting it. Can I ask if there is noticeable bellying behind the bridge? As long as the guitar's braces are still properly glued, the combination of added humidity and lower tension (fewer, lighter strings, and tuned down) should reduce the depression and bellying over time.
 
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makeuacaster

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No significant bellying behind the bridge. And yes, it's a bowl, not a belly. Senior moment!
 
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Boomstick

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This is a fairly interesting problem. From my experience, if you get bellying and cut the tension and keep the guitar humidified properly, bellying does tend to correct itself. I had a '47 Gibson LG-3 that got some water damage, got the bracing reglued and the top started bellying. I kept the guitar in the case in DADGAD and tuned it up to standard as needed and after a couple weeks it corrected itself to near no bellying at all. This seems to be the opposite of a tension problem.

Given this is a new guitar, this makes me think that somehow the top was created with a natural curve to it, or maybe the top was a hair larger than the sides and bracing and this is how it self corrected? Hopefully it's nothing to worry about but good luck!
 
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Christopher Cozad

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All good points here.

The strings, anchored through holes behind the saddle, pull up and over the saddle and apply a constant force on that bridge, acting as a lever, that works to rotate the bridge forward. Engineering the bracing in front of the bridge, which includes the center of the “X”, is both a repeatable science and an artform. The smallest variation from one instrument to another in top thickness and stiffness, brace stiffness, bridgeplate placement, etc. can and will have an impact on that guitar soundboard’s performance, let alone its appearance.

If the bracing will permit it (aka “failure” to one degree or another), the string pull that seeks to rotate the bridge forward will cause the front of the bridge to plough downward (sinking the soundboard with it). In these cases you won’t typically notice severe bellying, as the stress is being relieved in front of the bridge. By contrast, should the X brace be a veritable unmovable rock, something you could seemingly stand on, the torque being applied to the bridge will NOT succeed in pushing the bracing and soundboard down in front of the bridge. If the structure of the lower bout will permit it (aka “failure” to one degree or another), the back of the bridge will tend to lift and, if the soundboard stays firmly attached to the bridge, the soundboard will lift (or “belly”) with it.

Most center soundhole, X-braced guitars achieve a balance, an equilibrium where there is both some depression (however slight) in front of the bridge and some raising (however slight) behind it. I am not suggesting that is a good thing, and some of us are working to try to change that, but it is how guitars have been built for a good long while now.

This knowledge is most applicable if a sunken soundboard is the result of bracing failure, either glue-related or structural. Such a failure could occur over time or, as kostask has suggested, could be the result of a sudden, catastrophic event.

jedzep has identified another issue that can explain a sunken soundboard, and that would be related to dryness. Most acoustic guitar soundboards are constructed to have a convex radius, or “arch”. It is a relative topic, but wood will shrink across its grain if moisture is removed from it, and will expand if moisture is absorbed. A lower bout of a jumbo guitar that left its properly humidified factory birthing center at 17” wide, if left to dry out, will absolutely measure less than 17” wide due to the soundboard shrinking in width and drawing the sides in. Additionally, that 28 foot radius arch (or whatever) will tend to flatten under such circumstances, as the bracing beneath the soundboard retracts across its grain as well. That loss of arch pulls the bridge down with it and can result in the appearance of a sunken soundboard.

I would remove the strings and attempt to humidify the guitar (don’t err on the other side and introduce a host of issues by getting it wet). If humidifying the guitar does not restore the arch in the soundboard, THEN you know you have damage to deal with.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Upon re-reading my own post, I realized I had neglected to mention an unintended side benefit {sarcasm} of a dried-out sunken soundboard. Depending on the metrics, and whether or not there is any bellying behind the bridge, a guitar sporting a sunken soundboard is often accompanied by a low string action (if the bridge has been permitted to drop away from its original position relative to the fretboard plane, the string path moves closer to the fretboard). This can range anywhere from strings literally laying on the frets to being "just the right height” above them and comfortable to play. Do not be surprised when, upon correction of the soundboard plane issue on such an instrument, the string action is now much higher than before.

This can be beneficial knowledge for those hunting down used instruments, as a neck reset may be required in that guitars immediate future, even though today’s string action measurements look just fine.
 

Skywalker

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Looks like one hell of a lot of indentation to me.

What will the action end up being when it's flat? 🤔
 
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