Change in guitar tone when pickup installed?

[samuelch]

I recently had a pickup installed on my Guild D-17M.
Before the pickup was installed, the tone of the guitar was rich with nice low end and lots of clarity.
After the pickup installation (under the saddle) from a professional luthier, I noticed the tone of the guitar slightly changed - volume slightly dropping and guitar sounding a little bit muddy (not as clear as before).
I told my luthier and he said I was being paranoid.
Maybe I am

Anyone else experience this?
I'm guessing a lot of things could be a factor to this.

 

[West R Lee]

I've often asked this same question. Makes you wonder if the loss of contact between the surface area of the top and saddle due to the pickup strip does dampen the sound somewhat? Most say the strips are so thin, just a few thousandths, that the difference is negligable, I'm not so sure myself. I would think another factor could be how well the under-saddle was installed, I do know that sometimes, an improper installation can cause a lack of uniformity from string to string, with one string being louder than another for instance, or one being muted while the others sound fine.

West

 

[samuelch]

Plugged in, the guitar sounds great.
Perfect balance.

Unplugged, well...not too sure...
The string balance unplugged is good...but it just sounds a bit muddier than usual...then again, not to say that Guild sound muddy, but it's not a Taylor...

 

[West R Lee]

Plugged in, the guitar sounds great.
Perfect balance.

Unplugged, well...not too sure...
The string balance unplugged is good...but it just sounds a bit muddier than usual...then again, not to say that Guild sound muddy, but it's not a Taylor...

No it's not! :wink: I'll say this, mine sound far better to me "miked" than they do though the pickup......much more natural.

West

 

[Punkybub]

You may be paranoid, but you're also right - whenever you put something between the saddle and the bridge (like an undersaddle pickup), you will change the tone. Depending on your ear it could be anywhere from a minor to a fairly major change. It's one of the most critical points on an acoustic for tone.

The guitars I want to put pickups in, I'll go with a pickup that doesn't put anything between the saddle and the bridge. My current fave is the K&K - three nickel-sized flat transducers that glue *under* the top inside the guitar, on the bridgeplate. They're permanent but cheap (< $100 typically), and you can use them w/o a preamp if needed. Oh yeah - they sound great too!

One other thing occurred to me - for an undersaddle pickup to sound the best, some luthiers will switch from a
bone saddle to Micarta or Tusq or other man-made, more consistent material to avoid dead spots when using the pickup. I'm a strictly bone-saddle-guy myself, so that would be a foul to begin with for me.

Bottom line I believe is that it does change the tone. Some notice it, some don't.

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

I had USP's in two different guitars over the years.
I have taken them out because I did not like the acoustic sound after the pickup was installed.
One of the guitars not only had the pickup under tha saddle but there was also a shim placed in there to get the action back up.
This combination was death to the pure acoustic sound og my guitar.
There are several pickups that can be used that don't go under the saddle.
The K&K mini is getting great reviews!
I will never use a USP on one of my good acoustic guitars again!!!
There is a place for them, but not in my good acoustics.

Right now my wife and I just use mic's and with just the two of us playing, the sound is easy to mix and sounds wonderful.
TMG

 

[killdeer43]

I recently had a new saddle installed on my new ('79) D25. In the process, I had the under-saddle pickup (that the previous owner had put in) removed. The guitar sounds noticeably better/brighter than it did when I first got it. So, what made it sound better? Was it the new saddle, removing the pickup, or a combination of both?
Oh what fun!

 

[West R Lee]

I'd say both Buckyboy. I've often wondered what my DV72 would sound like if I snatched the undersaddle pickup out......I'd hate to mess that one up though. I like the way that one sounds just like it is.

West

 

[Guildmark]

... the sound is easy to mix and sounds wonderful.

Did I miss the link to these wonderful sounds? :?:

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Guildmark,
I have no idea of how or what goes into making sound recordings on a computer.
I'm lucky to be able to turn the darn thing on and find thid place.

 

[Guildmark]

We'll just have to wait until we get you in an LTG gathering somewhere then.

 

[sitka_spruce]

One day I'll probably remove the original Fishman UST and put a K&K under the bridgeplate instead. Not a huge fan on piezos to begin with, me. I'm not surprised of the tonal loss, though. The piezo film works by compressing it with the saddle. When vibrations occur by putting the strings into motion this variation of pressure is picked up by the UST. The UST could then be said to cushion the saddle from the bridge.

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

We'll just have to wait until we get you in an LTG gathering somewhere then.

Let's get one in Utah!!!

 

[Guildmark]

Utah might be reasonably central from California, Oregon, Washington, Montana, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, British Columbia, Ontario, Europe and New Zealand. Sorry, I don't recall. Any LTG'ers in Idaho or Wyoming?
Any guitar shows scheduled over there?

 

[samuelch]

So weird thing...I brought out my guitar on Saturday after not playing it since Thursday...
A buddy of mine came over to jam, and all of a sudden, the guitar seemed like a whole different beast!
I was surprised that it sounded just as good if not better than when I first got it. Maybe it just needed time to settle?
I don't know, it's kind of odd...or maybe I was really being paranoid...

 

[Recky]

When I installed my umpteenth B-Band UST in one of my guitars, I noticed some inconsistency in volume between the strings for the first time. I contacted B-Band about it and they told me that the problem would disappear after a few hours or maybe days - and it did, to some degree. I put some paper shims under the quieter strings after that, and got the balance right. I'm not perfectly happy, but the acoustic tone is fine, and that's the main thing.

Apparently, the USTs sometimes need to settle for a while.

Cheers,
Recky

 

[sitka_spruce]

So weird thing...I brought out my guitar on Saturday after not playing it since Thursday...
A buddy of mine came over to jam, and all of a sudden, the guitar seemed like a whole different beast!
I was surprised that it sounded just as good if not better than when I first got it. Maybe it just needed time to settle?
I don't know, it's kind of odd...or maybe I was really being paranoid...

Yep, the pressure need to stabilise a bit. Still you won't get where you were before the pickup was installed though.

 

[zplay]

I had USP's in two different guitars over the years.
I have taken them out because I did not like the acoustic sound after the pickup was installed.
One of the guitars not only had the pickup under tha saddle but there was also a shim placed in there to get the action back up.
This combination was death to the pure acoustic sound og my guitar.
There are several pickups that can be used that don't go under the saddle.
The K&K mini is getting great reviews!
I will never use a USP on one of my good acoustic guitars again!!!
There is a place for them, but not in my good acoustics.

Right now my wife and I just use mic's and with just the two of us playing, the sound is easy to mix and sounds wonderful.
TMG

Okay, I'm a total novice when it comes to pickups, so humor me please. This thread has got me thinking: would it be possible to test the tone of an acoustic, like my CV-2C, both with and without the USP? In other words, how much trouble and expense do you guys think it would be to detach and reattach the the wire to the piezo and to have another saddle made to compensate for the loss of thickness without the piezo? .... Huh, huh?