Bellying on new F40 Traditional

schoolie

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Hoping to get some advice. I returned a used F40 traditional and exchanged for a "new" F40 Traditional. When the guitar arrived, it looked dried out and the action was very low. I shimmed the saddle, but the guitar is now in 50% humidity and I notice the action keeps rising, and I see some bellying of the top, especially on the bass side. If I put straight edge across the top behind the bridge, the gap at the bass edge is close to 1/4". I don't see any bracing issues... Not sure if this would be considered normal. WOuld this be concerning to you? Any advice on what I should do? Thanks!
 

geoguy

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Also, if you are saying that the straightedge is touching the center of the soundboard (behind the bridge), and the treble-side edge of the soundboard at the lower bout, that gap at the bass-side lower bout is about what I see on three guitars that I just checked.

Maybe you can now remove the shim beneath the saddle, to put the action back closer to where it belongs?
 

chazmo

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I would de-tune the guitar, and let it re-hydrate with lower string tension.

If you are the original owner, and purchased the guitar from a Guild dealer, then you should be able to get a warranty repair, if needed.
I would add to this. De-tune or take strings off, place a stack of books on the belly, and put a bunch of damp-its in the sound hole using the soundhole cover. Do this for about 10 days. This will over-humidify the guitar and help it take shape again. It's worked for me in the past, but only on severely bellied (and braces detached). Try it.
 

schoolie

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Thanks so much for the help!..and just to clarify, after shimming the saddle, I've had to lower the saddle past the original height when the guitar arrived..I will try following your suggestions. If that doesn't work, I'll take it to a Guild authorized repair person..Fortunately, I have one near me.
 

schoolie

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Returning is a possibility, but that would make my 2nd return, and they don't have any of this model in stock. I'll probably take it to a tech for an inspection.
 

schoolie

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Update: Took the guitar to a good repair shop and they have given it a clean bill of health. It's just lightly built and nothing out of the ordinary...I didn't want to scare anybody considering an F40.
 

Westerly Wood

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Update: Took the guitar to a good repair shop and they have given it a clean bill of health. It's just lightly built and nothing out of the ordinary...I didn't want to scare anybody considering an F40.
awesome!

Norman Blake said "never to trust a guitar without a belly."

Matter of fact, I think he resting his right palm on the belly of this old Martin :)

 

schoolie

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Rather than start a new thread, I thought I continue with this F40 trad saga..I'm not saying that all of these guitars are duds, but the one I bought seems to be a bit lifeless, perhaps because of the poor conditions at the store. The saddle has had to be lowered quite a bit, but it still has good height over the top, and the break angle of the strings is OK...I just can't understand why this huge guitar sounds so quiet, like the strings and the body are not working together. I have light strings on it and don't want to go any heavier because of the belly. It's a light guitar for its size and makes nice thumps when I tap it.

Sorry to whine about this, but I've never spent this kind of money on a guitar, and now I'm stuck with this quiet beast. Is it just a dud, or is there something I can change/try?
 

chazmo

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Sorry to hear you're not enjoying the sound of your F-40.

Have you tried using different string types? Phosphor-bronze vs. 80/20 vs. Monel vs. high copper content... I wouldn't recommend silk&steel in your situation as that'd just exacerbate the problem. Anyway, changing strings is definitely the biggest "bang for the buck" change you can make with your guitar, not to mention one of the only things you can change easily. Another thing to check is that the saddle is properly seated in the bridge.

Good luck!
 

schoolie

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Thanks, Chazmo! I've tried 80/20 and PB strings, all D'addarios. I'll experiment with other brands and types
 

schoolie

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I did install a Platemate which I do with all of my guitars. It usually improves the tone and volume, but maybe I'll try slotting the bridge and removing the Platemate.
 

geoguy

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Perhaps also confirm that both the bottom of the saddle and the saddle's slot in the bridge are nice & flat, and making good contact.

I once bought a used guitar that sounded uninspiring, and found a thin plastic shim (it looked like a piece of binding) under the saddle. Removing that little shim brought the guitar back to life.
 

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I don't want to question your ability, but I have had guitars that required me to be very precise when it comes to finger placement relative to the frets. Keep playing around with the guitar and you might find that it comes around to your style of play (or more likely, you come around to what the guitar geometry wants).
 

schoolie

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Thanks for the suggestions! I'm trying to play it as much as possible. I don't give up on guitars and I've found no reason why this one can't sound great.
 

Boneman

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I‘ll offer up some thoughts, but am not quite following; you say you picked up a used one, didn’t bond with it, so you returned it and got a brand new one. Or did you put “new” in quotes because it wasn’t brand new, just new to you and as opposed to the other used one? If the second one was also used, then makes more sense why there could be issues. If the second one was in fact brand new, and if the action was too low to begin with(not sure I’ve heard that ever being a case, usually too high), then I don’t think shimming the saddle was the solution. Might have been a return candidate as well.

Though you updated your post to say you took it to a repair shop, so not the store you bought it from. :unsure: leads me to believe it was also used. (People always say I should have been a detective.(insert inside joke here: then I could be working in shifts:ROFLMAO:))

I digress, anyhow, bellying is from too much moisture, it causes the wood to swell. And if the bellying starts in front of the bridge, dropping the bridge pins downhill so to speak, I could see that maybe pulling the action lower. Dryness will cause the wood to shrink and crack, and it would raise the action if the neck is diving into soundhole. Be easier to spot. If it was in fact that dry, it could also have cracks, and it would seem the frets would have also been sprouting, next question is were they? I suspect not since you said it was bellied. In general if they are dried out, yes, then definitely need to loosen tension, and humidify it. But more likely it was bellying due to too much humidity and you added more! Thinking out loud I would posit that a saturated guitar would not ring out and vibrate as one in it’s sweet spot of moisture content, and could explain why you feel it’s a dud.

Although I’d have started by checking the neck’s relief first, then saddle then nut. Was it just the action initially, or was it also the sound/ tone you didn’t like? I’m wondering, since now in the time you’ve had it, you took it to be checked out and was deemed to be fine, but you still aren’t happy and think it’s a dud. Is it just the action still? I’m unfamiliar with a plate mate, what does that do? Slot the pin holes? Egads, I’ve never had to do that, and thats typically only if your saddle is so low you need to but I feel like it all may have been unnecessary work done to it, as it shoulda played reasonably well right from the jump and if the action was trouble, I might have returned it. Typically a saddle should be lowered not shimmed. If it needs to be taller, recommend to carve a new one. The shim has a better chance of lessening vibration transfer which contributes to lousy tone. Possibly could be a relief issue, but again your tech looked at it. I mean I guess it could be your playing style, but you have other guitars you feel are fine. Have you had others play your F40 and you listen from the other side? How’s it sound when you’re not playing it?
 

schoolie

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My current guitar with the issues was bought new from CME. i didn't want to ship it back since the return period had expired..i took the guitar to a shop that is an authorized Guild repair center, so they could do warranty work.

Before I took t to the shop, i adjusted relief to 0.005", i replaced the saddle (which was loose in the slot and poorly cut) with a replacement from Guild, and adjusted the action. What concerned me was that the action kept rising, and i wanted to rule out any structural issues.

When I received the guitar, it was obvious that it had been played, and was not new out of the box. It was the last guitar in their inventory. My main complaint is that I have bought a new guitar that might need a neck reset way too early. I've taken down the saddle as low as possible and had to ramp the slots a little bit to make that work...

The platemate is a strip of thin brass that attaches to the bridge plate and prevents the ball ends of the strings from chewing into the bridge plate. I don't think removing it would help, so forget what I said...I just splurged on this guitar and was hoping it would be something special, and I know that's very subjective...I'm going to keep playing it and hoping to bond. Thanks for reading :)
 

schoolie

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Sorry, to bring this thread up again, but there is a happy ending. I bought a dehumidifier for my music room. Humidity went from 60-65% to 45% and the belly on the top slowly decreased. None of my other guitars are so sensitive to humidity, but now I know. Plays and sounds great now.
 
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