New or vintage?

dreadnut said:

Anyway, I think vintage Guilds are your best bang for the buck, all things considered.

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I guess... unless they need a neck reset... or they have a low saddle... or need some expensive repair. That's why I generally prefer used Guilds, but not vintage.

Yeah, "vintage" is a widely understood term, "used" would probably better describe what I'm talking about.

I was not a fan when they hijacked the Westerly brand for the MIC line. I still want to get a Troubadour one day, but still, "Westerly Collection" definitely hit a nerve with me.

spoox said:

Hmm...I own an antique shop, grew up with antique shops, drive only Studebakers, had a 1940s house moved on my property rather than have a new one built...I can't recall ever buying a new instrument except for some custom made ukes and resonators. Once I perfect my time machine and amass enough pre 1936 cash to take back to the past I'll happily purchase all the new Dobro and National instruments I can afford and fit into the Tardis...

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They don’t make antiques like they used to!

Westerly Wood said:

I was not a fan when they hijacked the Westerly brand for the MIC line. I still want to get a Troubadour one day, but still, "Westerly Collection" definitely hit a nerve with me.

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I agree. That was very sneaky.... I wonder how many lesser informed folks were fooled by this....

I have also observed that the used US built electrics are commanding higher prices than the acoustics, maybe because there are less of them?

dreadnut said:

I have also observed that the used US built electrics are commanding higher prices than the acoustics, maybe because there are less of them?

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I think that statement is a bit broad, but I could argue that it's easier for a solidbody electric to survive than it is for an acoustic. I for one have little problem buying an old solidbody sight-unseen (depending on model) whereas I'd grill an acoustic seller on every little detail because I consider acoustics to be much more fragile. An exception for me is a Gibson Les Paul or SG where the headstock angle is so severe that neck breaks are more common. The logic gets blurry with hollow-body electrics too, since they can have similar issues to acoustics.

If you mean Guild specifically, it also really depends on the model. I've taken a bath on most of the '80s Guild electrics I've bought and sold, whereas something like a Nightbird I think would always be desirable.

davismanLV said:

No kidding, dread. This is like Twilight Zone level veer......

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Boldly veering where no man has veered before.

To make music is to participate in the act of creation itself.

I have spoken.

Just had a bonding session with my D40 Richie Havens.

I say buy 'em new if you like 'em and let 'em turn vintage on ya.

If ya can't buy what you want new, then ya gotta do whatcha gotta do.

It's probably not a very popular opinion but I think Guild ended with the move from Westerly. But as far as import Guilds go, what makes a imported Guild guitar any more a Guild than a Mediera, or D'Armond? Or even a Burnside? The American made Guilds may be very good guitars, but are they less a Tacoma? Corona was basically Fender, as far as I know, and Fender was never a true player in the acoustic segment. One of the first hopes when Fender bought Guild, was they would finally have a true higher end acoustic brand. And many people were delighted when Ren became involved. But was there a bit of Gibson introduced?
Branding is very subjective. We tend to stick to something once we find it. So for me Guild was Hoboken and Westerly. I played them, I know them. Everything else is new.

New isn't bad. It's new. And it may be different from what you KNOW, but that's progress. Comparing new to old is really a pointless scenario. The kids who are watching are going to be saying "Yeah those old New Hartford guitars were great but they're finally opening up." And Insert "Oxnard" in there too. I'll be dead before they become "vintage" so I just play and try not to judge so much. Which is why I've a few non-Guilds.... I buy what I like. That outlook has served me well. Not for all, but works for me.....

cupric said:

Corona was basically Fender, as far as I know, and Fender was never a true player in the acoustic segment. One of the first hopes when Fender bought Guild, was they would finally have a true higher end acoustic brand.

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Let's not forget that Fender's acquisition of Guild was finalized in Nov. '95, so for sure the '96-'01 Westerly period was under Fender ownership, although I believe I've read that on-site management was largely left intact.

Long time ago member @hideglue (Paul correct me if I'm grossly incorrect here) who worked at Westerly at the time, said that "Guild QC reached a zenith under Fender".

It was misinterpreted by some as implying that the "Fender Guilds" (my term) were better than what came before, so he had to take pains to clarify that it was the overall level of QC that Fender introduced, with things like a checklist to ensure no step was overlooked, that increased overall percentage of "good" builds.

Let's not forget, either, Fender set up the Guild Nashville Custom Shop which ushered in a new even higher class of design and build, seeking to revive to and give modern expression to Guild's roots, with things like the 45th Anniversary, the Valencia, and the F30RLS (Long Scale).

Move to Corona began in '01 for '02 model year production, and for sure they had their teething pains, but Corona production was driven by a new build philosophy: "Vintage Justified" as explained by former member Jay Pilzer, here: whoah, "error establishing database connection" from several avenues.

Basically Pilzer described how Fender acquired examples of "vintage" models to see how they were built and what was "good" was kept, and what maybe wasn't so good wasn't necessarily retained just because that's how they did it.

They made never-before used blueprints to codify build consistency across models. (I also have a pet hypothesis that those same prints may have been used in designing the MIC GAD line which was introduced in '03)

But I also think it may be why my Corona D40's "built like a tank" compared to the 2 late Westerlys. And it took a while, but I love it just as much as the others now.

Fender also built an entire new section in Corona to be dedicated to Guild acoustic production, even installed a brand new spray booth for NCL. (Although, yeah early Coronas have been to reported to have had a somewhat high degree of finish blem 2nds... )

But in my opinion, yeah, they were serious.

Yes I agree I've always suspected they bought Guild precisely so they could become a serious and respected player in the US build flattop market, although I myself began to get sense of "corporate big fish gobbling up the little fish competitors" when they acquired Tacoma and unceremoniously moved Guild production up there virtually lock stock and barrel (Don't know about the spray booth, though )

But they fostered design innovation in Tacoma too, investing in Guild's R&D personnel with what appear to be very good results, barring the perhaps undeservedly notorious "Contemporary Series" with their bolt-on neck design.

cupric said:

And many people were delighted when Ren became involved. But was there a bit of Gibson introduced?

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Just realized perhaps that was "rhetorical", otherwise was just gonna say that Ren's Orpheum series have been said to have some Gibson-like characterisitics, like a slope-shouldered dread. And maybe that's what you meant.

cupric said:

Branding is very subjective. We tend to stick to something once we find it. So for me Guild was Hoboken and Westerly. I played them, I know them. Everything else is new.

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Brand loyalty is a very personal ting, I have my own favorites, but yes, when one's favored brand changes on you, one feels a bit betrayed..

I think Fender respected and preserved the Guild brand identity better than CMG. Let's not forget the impact of the Great Recession, yet Fender kept the brand alive through it all.

I came to Guild because my early '80's MIK Fender F210 flattop (a nice decent little guitar) was stolen. I wanted to finally buy a good "lifetime" US-built guitar, one that was worth re-furbishing as needed. With a warranty.

Was having sticker shock, best buddy (himself an owner of an '87 JF30-12) said "Y'oughta check out Guild. Fender just bought 'em."
So I did, and I found my D25.

I just realized I don't think I ever thanked him enough for that tip.

adorshki said:

Basically Pilzer described how Fender acquired examples of "vintage" models to see how they were built and what was "good" was kept, and what maybe wasn't so good wasn't necessarily retained just because that's how they did it.

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As a veer, the practice was also applied to electrics and continued. A member has reported that FMIC had several of his instruments in for measurements. Several of grot's instruments, including IIRC an acoustic, were similarly borrowed and reverse engineered. Some of that happened under CMG.

I've owned (in some cases still own) several post-Westerly made acoustic Guilds, and to me they sound / sounded very much like the Westerly and Hoboken made versions we know and love.

I didn't keep my New Hartford D55, but that wasn't because I felt Guild had abandoned their characteristic build or tonal qualities -- quite the contrary. I didn't keep it because it didn't sound as rich as my late '60s Westerly D50.

But the difference was that the D50 was more than 40 years old when I got it and the New Hartford two years old. I have a feeling that in 40 years that NH D55 is going to be a monster, and is still going to sound like a Guild.

I haven't run across any Oxnards yet, but I would expect the same to hold true in terms of their being part of the lineage.

None of the post-Westerly factories seem to be trying to imitate Taylors or Martins or Gibsons. All seem to have embraced their Guild-ness.

I have a Westerly and a NH D55 and I’d bet cash money that no one would be able to tell them apart blindfolded either playing or listening.

I have a NH F50R that is a magnificent instrument.

I have Corona Guild electrics that are as good if not better than Westerly counterparts.

I’m a huge Westerly fan boy, but Guild did not die when leaving Westerly.

I think the way the moves were handled wasn’t great, and I think Fender cared more about profits than people in the end, but I also don’t think Westerly Guild would have survived the last 20 years.

I have a real penchant for Tacoma D50's, one of the best Guilds I ever played.

Affordability for quality builds is what led me to Guilds in the first place. Now that prices for used Guilds have risen considerably, I'm completely satisfied with a quality guitar regardless of where it's built or how old it is, as long as I like how it plays. I'm absolutely enamored with the NS M-75 Aristocrat, and I think the current prices for used examples are ridiculous, especially when dealers try to capitalize on the "vintage" aspects of it. Admittedly, I do prefer used, but for different reasons.

As with cars, there are far too many perfectly decent used guitars lacking good homes and only need minor fixes. I'm highly opposed to buying new things all the time just to keep the machine rolling, and overall I revel in finding decent products that can be repaired easily. This world is already filled with enough perfectly usable stuff that can be maintained with reasonable investment. Often, not always, it is true that older things were built better.

For example, I have two canister vacuum cleaners that are mostly made of metal, powerful as hell, and have two HEPA filters for allergies. Every single part can be replaced with the use of a screwdriver and a pair of pliers, including the motor and every part of the power head. I can buy two used for less than the price of a new Dyson and keep more plastic out of a landfill when it dies. Hell, I buy used IKEA stuff on CL.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the mojo and charm that vintage Guilds and other gear have. Almost all my guitars and amps are considered vintage, as are my cars, lol. I usually try to judge the price vs quality of a used Guild first, but I'm not opposed to new if it's a better option. But when a "vintage" guitar costs more than my car no matter how stellar it is, and my job is not a professional musician, then I'm hesitant to go down that road.

Don't get me wrong; there are several Martins and Taylors and Collings I would love to add to my stable. You just know it when you play it! Having the opportunity to visit Elderly Instruments frequently I've played some pretty nice acoustic guitars. But my bankroll has never been sufficient for most of them. In retrospect:

New, I believe this was around $2,500.00 Elderly had one, and I played it.



Then there was an excellent condition '96 Martin D45 on consignment for $2,500.00 Thing is, it played like a dream and it sang the siren song to me "Take me home, Take me home," But wisely, I decided to pay the mortgage and stuff.

I also got a chance to play this Taylor Special Edition at Elderly, after they finally moved it out of the showcase and hung it on the wall. One of the finest acoustics I have ever played, certainly the nicest Taylor. I'm thinking their price at the time was around $4K, and Elderly doesn't normally dicker on prices. So, alas, Uncle Dread goes home empty-handed again.

Sure is fun to play all these babies though, really gives you the opportunity to compare brands, and inspect them real well!

Elderly doesn't mind you playing the guitars in the acoustic room, in the rack or on the wall, as long as you're not a maniac...ya gotta have guitar etiquette.