Drum question

Nuuska said:

Oh Oh !!!

You said : "Neighbours" - does that mean you live in a condo or . . . ?

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Yes we live in some kind of rowhouse. I think the neighbours are ok with the agreement we made yesterday. If not we talk again. Plus: I already took them to the right direction with my lovely guitar noises, they adapted quite well and are used to it

I have now brought the drumset to our place, but I'm afraid there won't be enough time to set it up, my wife has to work today and I have a pile full of tasks to do preparing our camping holiday... deadline tomorrow high noon...

Velvet Phelts said:

Drums was my first instrument. Lessons from 8 to 11. I think everyone should learn drums first. Teaches them timing. 1/8 1/4 1/2 whole notes beats measure etc. Don't know how you would learn guitar without it. I know it's done. Just think your much better off with the fundamentals.

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Yes, Izzy Stradlin and Jack White did learn drums first as well, so this approach to music for sure is helpful! no matter if you stick with drums later or proceed to a more sophisticated instrument like, uhm, guitar switch to another instrument.

Thought I'd post a little update, since some of you contributed dedicatedly to this thread and helped me a lot.

Well, I bought the PDP by DW set and brought it home. Then we left for a long vacation and came back six weeks ago. Next thing I set up the drumkit, tuned it and made everything ready. This is what it looked like before I installed the cymbals:



The kids startet playing, drum lessons started and soon afterwards I had to admit to myself that I had made a mistake: the thing was just too big! The 22" bass drum was huge, the tomtoms too high, I couldnt't move the snare (which was terribly loud) and the high hat close enough for my daughter to play in a reasonable way. I started to hate the thing. It was black and huge, an ugly manifestation of my failure, and in the reflective surface I could see my frustrated self.

So I decided to get rid of it. I managed to sell it without loss, then I went to a drum shop and bought a brand new Yamaha Manu Katché Junior Kit. This is what it looks like:



It's pretty, its small and my kids just love it. And it sounds way better! 16" Bassdrum, perfect size for my daughter. And thanks to the riser under the bass drum, the drum set will grow along with my kids, you can play this set even as an adult! So everyone is happy now

Nice. Used to get really good sounding tracks with a 16" Kick.

Thanks. Interesting that in spite of best efforts the original really did not fit, size wise. You are to be commended for recognizing your mistake. A lot of people, myself included, would have kept trying to make the big set work with the probably effect that the kids just give up.

fronobulax said:

Thanks. Interesting that in spite of best efforts the original really did not fit, size wise. You are to be commended for recognizing your mistake. A lot of people, myself included, would have kept trying to make the big set work with the probably effect that the kids just give up.

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Thanks Jamie. I think I was once again just too impulsive and impatient, inspite the warning voices here...

crank said:

You should really wait for the right kit to come along. Can the teacher rent you a kit?

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Yes, admitting errors is one of the lessons life has thaught me. Some days I'm better at it, some days I'm not. But in this case it was just too obvious...

I wondered how that set was gonna work out, Ruedi. It really is about whether the main parts (hi-hat, throne, snare) can be lowered enough. I did have no doubts, though, that you'd be able to resell the PDP set easily and that they'd hold their value, if it didn't work out.

I've gone through this many times with instruments and especially bikes with my boys. Of course, it's most important that the kids are comfortable with the new set. So glad you found a good solution. Sometimes trial and error is just a part of it. Happy drumming to the kids.

My son is currently going through the Bonham playbook :C)

I played drums for years. I've restored many kits. Vintage stuff is fun to play. New cheap stuff is much better than it was in my day. My advice? Less is more - an 18" bass, a snare, maybe one tom, a hi hat and one crash/ride. Go with lightweight stands. TAMA flat-base classics are really nice. Might even be good to get a "keyboard" instrument so they can add mallet-music to the mix. It's all percussion after all. If they take to it the sky's the limit. Ask me how I know.

Marty

jp said:

I wondered how that set was gonna work out, Ruedi. It really is about whether the main parts (hi-hat, throne, snare) can be lowered enough. I did have no doubts, though, that you'd be able to resell the PDP set easily and that they'd hold their value, if it didn't work out.

I've gone through this many times with instruments and especially bikes with my boys. Of course, it's most important that the kids are comfortable with the new set. So glad you found a good solution. Sometimes trial and error is just a part of it. Happy drumming to the kids.

My son is currently going through the Bonham playbook :C)

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Yeah you told me, I wouldn't listen

Wow, the Bonham playbook? Good on you, your son really seems to be already very advanced!

I have invested in good bikes for the kids early this spring, one of my best decisions this year. During the lockdown we went on a lot of cycling tours and discovered the surroundings. The new bikes are fun to ride and have significantly enhanced our radius. That was very valuable in this time, when everything stood still.

Bikes, one of the things that make life worth living. Too bad out air is so foul now, not huffing this stuff.

Guildedagain said:

Bikes, one of the things that make life worth living. Too bad out air is so foul now, not huffing this stuff.

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Are you affected by the forest fires in the West of the U.S.? or how do you mean? I have seen it on the news yesterday, horrible...

Back to drums: I did some work on the set yesterday, on suggestion of the drum teacher. I tightened all the mounting screws of the tuning hogs and hardware, installed rubber washes on the tension rods and mounted Evans G1 coated batter drum heads, with the intention to get a warmer, nicer sound - plus the kids can learn to play with brushes as well (as was already proposed here earlier by @gilded).

In the process, i came up with the following question: How do you guys tune your drums? because I read different things. There are instructions that propose to tune the resonant head slightly tighter than the batter head, and others that propose to tune them equally thight, with exception of the snare.

Second question: should I put a cushion in the bass drum or not?

Any comments on this? Thank you!

Hello

Pitch difference between upper and lower head is actually matter of taste - what kind of sound you want.

If the resonant head is tighter than batter head - you will get a sound, where pitch goes up after attack.
And vice versa - when you listen to different recordings, you'll notice - matter of style so to speak.
And when tuned on same pitch - the result is steady tone.

In each way it is important that the head is tuned equally tight - pitchwise - tapping the head around near the edge. They sell torque-wrench type tuners, but I would not count on them, while the friction between bolts and lugs can vary more than the tightness of the head. Also you might want to start tuning by having the drum on the floor on a rug - so the opposite head gets muffled and it is easier to hear just the head you work on. Later when you get used to - tuning "on air" gets easier.

Depending on your bass drum - do you have a hole in the resonant head or not? I often put a small thin pillow or a small folded blanket on the bottom - so that it touches both heads enough to keep them from resonating wildly - but not too tight so it would kil the sound. Experiment till you find something you like. There's really no right or wrong sound - just different sounds.

I keep a pillow in my bass drum and it really eliminated ringing. I have some strips of Gorilla tape on the tom toms also to cut down ringing and overtones. As far as tuning goes, every time a different drummer comes over he or she will retune the kit a bit.

MoonGel

ruedi said:

Are you affected by the forest fires in the West of the U.S.? or how do you mean? I have seen it on the news yesterday, horrible...

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Here's a thread about some of us affected by the West coast fires, although I'm certain there are more members beyond us who are muddling through this.
https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/red-skies-at-night-the-future-is-here.204339/

ruedi said:

Back to drums: I did some work on the set yesterday, on suggestion of the drum teacher. I tightened all the mounting screws of the tuning hogs and hardware, installed rubber washes on the tension rods and mounted Evans G1 coated batter drum heads, with the intention to get a warmer, nicer sound - plus the kids can learn to play with brushes as well (as was already proposed here earlier by @gilded).

In the process, i came up with the following question: How do you guys tune your drums? because I read different things. There are instructions that propose to tune the resonant head slightly tighter than the batter head, and others that propose to tune them equally thight, with exception of the snare.

Second question: should I put a cushion in the bass drum or not?

Any comments on this? Thank you!

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This is a good instructional video I found, and my son followed it to tune his set. I was really impressed by how well he tuned it, and the results were pretty good. There are others I'm sure are also useful.



The snare and bass drum take more finesse and experience to dial in well, and you may ask the drum teacher to fine tune for you. And yes, a hunk of foam, a pillow, towel, or folded blanket in the bottom of the bass drum will control the overtones. You'll have to experiment by adjusting how much you have your "damper" touching the heads. You don't want to completely deaden the resonance, just dampen excessive ringing. Here's another good vid from the same channel.



Good luck!

Thank you all for your help!

Velvet Phelts said:

MoonGel

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Yes, I use Slapklatz dampeners and find them very helpful to reduce ringing and annoying overtones!

I now tuned the entire set. Thank you Nuuska for the advice of doing this on the carpet, this way I learned what I actually have to listen for! It was harder and more time consuming than I thought. My family worried a bit, because the last two days I would rather crawl around the drums than play my guitars I first tuned batter and resonant head to the same pitch, but this was somehow to loud and too much resonance! I then tuned the batter head to a slightly higher pitch than the resonant head, with quite satisfying results (for the toms at least). With the bass drum, I think I have just to experiment a bit more, still on my way with it. It doesn't have a hole in the resonant head @Nuuska. I first tried to dampen it with a pillow, but that killed it somehow, so I think it will work out fine with just the slapklatz, I just have to find out the right amount&size&placement on each head, combined with the correct pitch.

But oh boy, the snare. I almost threw it out of the window. Then I took a deep breath and decided to try it again. Tomorrow.

Imagine hitting this bin with a random stick. Aaaand voilà: my signature snare drum sound so far

Now the snare drum

Obviously - hopefully obvious to you, too - you should tune the snare drum first without the snare engaged - just the drum to right pitch. Then you turn the lever and have that rattle of the snare rolling in - you try to adjust it with the tension of the snare. It has to be somewhat tight - but not too tight.

There's also one trick I learned from a pro drummer - the four tension screws - one on each side at both ends of the snare - try to loosen them just a bit - all four equally - to fine tune the sound of the snare. Start with 1/4 of a turn first.

Courage - you'll get there.

Remember - my ex-boss Willi Studer never accepted "nüt möglich"

Yes, we live in the PNW, with the worst most toxic air in the world. Going outside without a tight fitting N95 mask means choking and coughing, it gets you right by the throat. Toxic. No just wood smoke, hundreds if not thousands of structures also, cars, trucks, animals, people even. We haven't seen sunshine or the sky since Monday the 7th. My biggest purchase of the week was 20x20 box fan online, not available in stores and a reusable K&N 20x20x1" washable filter to filter our inside air, can't open the windows.

Back to drums.

My drum heads are all 20 years old, just getting better. I have to ask other drummers not to put holes in them, and not to break my old Zildjian cymbals.

My recipe for excellent drum sound.

Coated Remo Ambassador on top, clear on bottom, uncoated heads are more resonant.

I have bottom heads on all my drums, full head in front of the bass, which I keep elevated off the floor to ring better.

I love shell overtones, I don't try to damp anything.

I use a felt beater on a Ludwig Speed King, and I have a round stick on reinforcement there, that's it for the bass drum. The sound of the bass is all in the resonant head.

I usually go slightly lower on the resonant head, that's how I was taught.

I tune all drums to proper tonal intervals.

My old Zildjians are all tuned lower and lower like the drums as you go across.

My ride and last crash ride are both 22". Old Zildjians are just magical cymbals.

Thank you @Nuuska and @Guildedagain! After a nice hike to the nearby transmission tower (beatuiful view, but not today...) with the kids I got back to work: Bass drum sounds fine now to my ears, and the snare sounds already better than yesterday.

Then I did some improvements acoustics-wise in the room. I put the drum set away from the wall, rearranged the couch and mounted four melamine foam pads to prevent the sound from bouncing across the room wildly. So I'm happy, I learned a lot again and achieved a sound quite decent to my ears.

Here's a video someone took with a drone from the transission tower we visited today. It gives you a good impression of the surroundings we live in. Wish I could send you some of the fresh air @Guildedagain!

Mani Matter country - Zündhoeltzli Lied - und Dr Sidi Abdel Assar Vo El Hama

And especially if you know the original song - you can appreciate this this lovely version of it - feel thecharm of lovely eyes + camels, sheeps and moon over desert.