Tone Deaf Tuesday

Stagefright · May 3, 2022

Every once in a while I have a day where tuning by ear is more difficult than it should be. I noticed that all of my guitars are suddenly out of tune and possibly in need of a string change. I have an electronic tuner and even that sounds off.

Is it just me, or is this a common phenomenon.

Westerly Wood · May 3, 2022

I would think by now, after 40+ years of playing acoustic guitar, that I would not need a tuner to tune my guitar.
Like at least an A or E string tone would be locked into my brain and I could just auto tune so to speak just by listening to the string.

That is still not the case

fronobulax · May 3, 2022

Stagefright said:
Every once in a while I have a day where tuning by ear is more difficult than it should be. I noticed that all of my guitars are suddenly out of tune and possibly in need of a string change. I have an electronic tuner and even that sounds off.

Is it just me, or is this a common phenomenon.

Interesting question but I don't think it is just you.

Before The Snark and equivalent became ubiquitous Mrs. Fro. would often tune her guitar, not like the results and ask me to tune it. Sometimes my tuning seemed better. We both have times when the electronic tuner says the guitar and bass are spot on but things just don't sound right. Many a time Mrs. Fro. has tuned at home, but the instrument in the case, driven to church, got it out there and decided it needed to be retuned. While there is a slight change in the environment the change is not so radical that I would expect strings or wood to change in 10 minutes.

Teleguy61 · May 3, 2022

I agree that one's perception of accurate pitch can change day to day, and sometimes the guitar just doesn't sound in tune.
There is, also, exactly in tune, and "sweetened" in tune--pitches adjusted so that chords sound in tune.

fronobulax · May 3, 2022

Westerly Wood said:
I would think by now, after 40+ years of playing acoustic guitar, that I would not need a tuner to tune my guitar.
Like at least an A or E string tone would be locked into my brain and I could just auto tune so to speak just by listening to the string.

That is still not the case

There is a phenomena known as "perfect pitch". People who have it can accurately remember pitches. Ask them for an A and they can hum it. Ask them what note is being played and they can nail it. I tell you this because the last time I looked at the evidence "perfect pitch" was genetic and not something that could be taught or learned.

It is possible to come close but the pitch "locked into your brain" is not always accurate and, indeed, not always the same as it was last time you remembered it.

I was in a chorus that had about 120 singers. Every so often as part of the warm up the conductor would ask us to "sing an A". It was interesting to notice how long it took everyone to "agree" what pitch an A was and how often the collective answer was close but not spot on.

Rocky · May 3, 2022

Mental state can certainly affect your sense of pitch - and timbre. Also ambient conditions, such as wind currents, and fans. Especially fans.

Guildedagain · May 3, 2022

Substances affect tuning.

Old strings don't intonate properly, causing endless tuning issues.

walrus · May 3, 2022

+1. I need a tuner, even though after all these years, I probably shouldn't.

I may have posted one of these videos before, there are several. But here's Rick Beato with a sort of "review" of his son's perfect pitch over the years.

walrus

Nuuska · May 3, 2022

Perfect pitch vs perfect ear of tuning - or perfect relative tuning ear.

Latter is desirable, because it helps you to tune in whatever is played by others.

Perfect pitch then - I'm very very very happy not to have that - while I've heard of people who just can't stand a fine piece of music in ( as close as theoretically can be ) perfect harmony - because instead of A-440 there is A-441.

And we should know that A has not always stayed at same frequency.

Stagefright · May 3, 2022

Rocky said:
Mental state can certainly affect your sense of pitch - and timbre. Also ambient conditions, such as wind currents, and fans. Especially fans.

I learned long ago that I could hear the reflected sound from ceiling fan blades. I'll go with the combo of mental state, season change, and old strings (I hate new strings).

Midnight Toker · May 3, 2022

My first guitar tuner came with the house!

(remember when your house phone was the property of Ma Bell?) US standard dial tone is A 440. A, also being the first chord to let you know right away if you are in tune or not. Other than that, I only use a tuner w/ my electrics. Acoustics I tune by ear, two strings at a time, checking w/ an A chord in both open and barre as I go.

Here, James Taylor explains his sweetened tuning.

Westerly Wood · May 3, 2022

Midnight Toker said:
My first guitar tuner came with the house! (remember when your house phone was the property of Ma Bell?) US standard dial tone is A 440. A, also being the first chord to let you know right away if you are in tune or not. Other than that, I only use a tuner w/ my electrics. Acoustics I tune by ear, two strings at a time, checking w/ an A chord in both open and barre as I go.

Here, James Taylor explains his sweetened tuning.

lol, he is insane. I really liked James Taylor sense of humor at the beginning playing that run all out of tune. It looked painful.
But the whole 1-3 cents flat etc is just crazy. that is obsession.

thanks for posting, that was fun to watch.

Westerly Wood · May 3, 2022

fronobulax said:
There is a phenomena known as "perfect pitch". People who have it can accurately remember pitches. Ask them for an A and they can hum it. Ask them what note is being played and they can nail it. I tell you this because the last time I looked at the evidence "perfect pitch" was genetic and not something that could be taught or learned.

It is possible to come close but the pitch "locked into your brain" is not always accurate and, indeed, not always the same as it was last time you remembered it.

I was in a chorus that had about 120 singers. Every so often as part of the warm up the conductor would ask us to "sing an A". It was interesting to notice how long it took everyone to "agree" what pitch an A was and how often the collective answer was close but not spot on.

This is really well said, Frono! My fave part is this and so dang true in my case:

"It is possible to come close but the pitch "locked into your brain" is not always accurate and, indeed, not always the same as it was last time you remembered it."

Way back when, I used to tune it once and then just retune as my ears led the way. Turned out my ears prefer E flat

lol

dreadnut · May 3, 2022

I just need one note, usually the low E, then I can tune by ear from there. I don't think I have perfect pitch.

Westerly Wood · May 3, 2022

dreadnut said:
I just need one note, usually the low E, then I can tune by ear from there. I don't think I have perfect pitch.

Well sure, most of us can tune the other 5 strings to an E or A.
What I am talking about is I find it funny that my ear can't first tune the E or an A based on memory or experience.
I think it has a lot to do with what Frono mentions above.

fronobulax · May 3, 2022

Westerly Wood said:
Well sure, most of us can tune the other 5 strings to an E or A.
What I am talking about is I find it funny that my ear can't first tune the E or an A based on memory or experience.
I think it has a lot to do with what Frono mentions above.

There is also something called relative pitch that can be learned. If you are "told" what an E is then with good relative pitch you can tell whether something is a fifth away, an A, and in tune.

Simplistically, if I can hand you a guitar, tell you to tune it to A 440 and you can do it, reliably, without a tuner or a sound source that plays a known pitch then you probably have perfect pitch.

If you need a tuning fork or a pitch source, say an A, and you can tune the guitar from there then you have good relative pitch.

And if you just grab your Snark and do whatever it says then your ear and pitch abilities are not involved until you decide you are going to argue with the Snark.

Westerly Wood · May 3, 2022

It’s hard to argue with a Snark.

fronobulax · May 3, 2022

Westerly Wood said:
It’s hard to argue with a Snark.

Usually you do it because you want something specific. "Sweetened tunings"? You are willing to accept something measurably wrong because it makes a difference elsewhere. On guitar you are sacrificing open strings because the results when fretted are more in tune.

I have tuned with a Snark, decided I didn't like the results and then discovered a string I had previously tuned had slipped out in the 30 seconds I spent on other strings.

Stagefright · May 3, 2022

I guess I started my day intent on an argument with my KORG PC-1. Another vote for the mental side of the ledger.

Is the Snark significantly better than other tuners?

Uke · May 3, 2022

This is a video of Wes Montgomery talking (in rehearsal) with Pim Jacobs, the Dutch jazz pianist about the impossibility of getting a guitar in tune. Montgomery implies that a piano can be perfectly in tune, an opinion that Jacobs doesn't agree with. When I have those days when the guitar just isn't sounding right, I remember this exchange between two gifted musicians, and I worry less about perfect tuning. By the way, my ear rarely agrees with electronic tuners. Back in the day I even thought about getting hold of a strobe tuner, but someone in the know said that wouldn't really help.

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