Questions about Novaks and Hipshots

Hello All,

I just bought a 2021 Starfire II bass. Love it. Always loved that woody sound of 335-like basses from my first one 51 years ago.

I've read hundreds of threads here and all the differing opinions about pickups and bridges. I bought a Hipshot bridge and a Curtis Novak pickup with the coil tap option.

Since the Hipshot is flat and the top of the Starfire II is slightly curved, has anyone figured out a way to make the Hipshot work? Maybe some shims under each side? I have a Badass on my Precision and the improved sustain and smoother resonance I'd like to have on my Starfire. No, not the same as a solid body bass.

I can see that wiring a replacement pickup on an f-hole instrument is not easy. It's been suggested to remove the bridge pickup because access to the harness is much easier through there. For those of you who have replaced pickups, do you have any tips for this task? I don't know that the Novak pickup will give me the sound I want, but I'd like to try since what I've read sounds promising. No, the Bisonic doesn't sound bad. I like them. Just want to try something different. I'm handy with electronics.

I'm new to this forum. I've been performing in bands continuously since 1971 and until 2 years ago when my band of 10 years decided to call it quits. And then COVID hit which pretty much shut down starting with a new band. I did do some sub work and a few auditions but nothing grabbed my interest. But now I'm raring to go and I've been keeping up my chops. Oh, I'm really a guitarist, but I do my own recording with my wife who sings so I get to play all the instruments - bass, guitar, synths, drums (programmed drums), whatever. It's my passion.

Thorne

PS - I tried flat wound Chromes as I love the flat wound sound and feel, but the E was way too muddy. I ordered a Pyramid Gold set and replaced the Chromes with round wounds for now. Don't like round wounds on this neck. Too noisy the finger movement.

Welcome.

I don't modify my instruments. I know my limitations.

@mellowgerman might have some comments about the bridge but I think the basic question of accommodating the curvature is correct.

There are a few threads about working on electronics in "f-hole instruments". Search for aquarium tubing in case these don't help. Maybe dental floss too so long as you are willing to ignore Zappa's Montana.




@lungimsam (last thread above) has been helpful.

I've got a coil tapped Novak BSDS in a custom solid body. I would expect it to be a step in the right direction (away from a Newark Street Bisonic and towards a vintage Bisonic) in a Starfire. I'd probably try it in the neck position of a Starfire II.

Thanks, frono. I've read many of your posts. Good stuff. Thanks for them.

If you are not gonna use the split capability of the Novak, you could just cut the existing N.S. Bisonic hot and ground leads that run to the stock volume pot long enough to just do the connection and soldering of the wires right there in the cavity and not need to remove any of the harness from the bass.
If you are going to use the split capability (did you get it wired as a humbucker? I know he does that.) I think you are gonna have to remove the harness to replace the stock volume pot with a push pull or some other split-function-able pot, if I am guessing correctly. I never used split capability before.

It is easy as long as you can get the harness out from the f hole or the pickup leads hole in the centerblock.

Aquarium airline tubing makes it simple to get the pots/switch/jack back in. It stands up on its own and makes it easy to find the holes better if you need.

Let us know how the Novak sounds compared to the stock pickup so we know if it is worth getting.
I for one love my N.S. Starfire but find it not responsive enough and would like a more high powered pickup with more kick, so I would be interested to hear about this. I will open a new thread to ask this as some of the LTG peeps have the Novak.

Thanks, sam. I did read your post about the aquarium tubing and made a note of it. Very good idea !

I requested of Curtis wiring for a coil tap, not a split. According to him the tap will allow me to select the pickup's sounding like a Dark Star or a Bisonic (if I understood correctly). I ordered a CTS push/pull pot for controlling the tap. I may also order a ToneStyler DUO SIX if I can determine that it will work with BS-DS pickup coil tap wiring.

I certainly will post my conclusions about the updated system. I'll post everything about the adventure.

Thanks! Sounds like you are going to have an amazing setup! The tonestyler sounds great in my Starfire with 500k volume pot. I am sure yours will too. Don at Stellartone has helped me alot with wiring setup questions. I am sure he will help you determine what works best.

I did dremel out the pickup leads cavity in my Starfire to get the harness out as it would not come out of the fhole. It was a rectangular hole and I just needed to widen it about half a cm and round the corner edge on one side.
If you are convinced your bass is a keeper then don't be afraid to dremel out the pickup leads hole in the centerblock like I did. Only needs to be big enough to get a pot thru. Doesn't take long.
Have fun and I look forward to hearing about the results!

To be clear, Novak offers a coil split that taps the coil in two different places. One position is the vintage Bisonic and the other is the Hammon Dark Star. The split is a $40 add on so if the PU is ordered that way it should hopefully be wired so either option can be used. (Otherwise, just pick a spec and save $40). I have a mini-toggle for the split on my custom but I don't know how you would control it on a Starfire without woodwork unless you had a push pull pot.

I have heard stories about a humbucking Bisonic but can't find that Novak is advertising it at his website https://www.curtisnovak.com/shop/bs-ds/

I wonder if there is some confusion with a two magnet Bisonic or with Hammon's Dark Stars which I seem to recall could be ordered as a pair that when properly installed and wired acted as a humbucker?

OK, so "split" and "tap" mean different things in my vocabulary, but that's OK. I understand what you're saying. I don't say "split" because I didn't believe the pickup coils are actually split. I figured there must be some electronic componentry that provides both Bisonic and Hammon sounds. Are Bisonics and Hammons single coil? I must not have dug deep enough to understand what I'm actually getting electronically. I don't know anything about a humbucker pickup if the Novak is not that.

I'm replacing a volume pot with a push/pull so I can get the "$40 feature."

I don't know what a coil split is on a single coil pickup and I have no idea why I said "coil split that taps". Whoops.

If you think simplistically about wire wrapped around a magnet, I think a Dark Star has 8,000 winds, a Bisonic has 12,000 winds and a coil tapped has 12,000 winds but a second output wire that, when used, acts as if there are only 8,000 winds. Numbers from memory so probably wrong but you get the idea. But the coil tapped version still only has one magnet and one coil.

All Bisonics are single coil. There are some experiments that have a second magnet as part of the pickup but that magnet does not have a coil. You need two coils to get a humbucking effect that only happens with Bisonics if you install two pickups in close proximity and wire them appropriately.

Clear as mud?

The Novak Bisonic is not a humbucker, but Mr. Novak wrote :
"They are a single coil but I can make a humbucking version that I really do not advertize. It will fit a stock Starfire route."
This is what I would get if I got one. Still mulling it over.
I did put a Ric humbucker in but I think the bass looks best with a Bisonic in there so I will one day Bisonic it up again either with NS Bisonic (budget solution) or Novak. But if I get a Novak I'm getting humbucking.

I seem to have one of the Bisonics that doesn't make any noise. So I won't need a Humbucker. But it's a great idea for a different sound.

Mine was noisy as all get out. Glad you have a good one!!
If the one you are talking about is the NS stock bridge Bisonic from your new SFII and you want to get rid of it let me know and I could buy it from you. Would be interesting to see if the CMG era and the FMIC era (like mine) sound different to my ears.

On a side note: LTG member mellowgerman must be kicking back in the Florida sun this week because I know he has done the Hipshot on a Starfire (IIRC). He has done other flat bridges and could tell you how he done it so he will be along shortly I am sure to let you know how to do it. It can be done.

thornev said:

I seem to have one of the Bisonics that doesn't make any noise. So I won't need a Humbucker. But it's a great idea for a different sound.

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The definition or threshold for "noisy" seems to be a personal tolerance. I would never say any of my Bisonics are noisy but I do change my position in the room, take my cell phone out of my pocket, wait until the microwave is off or roll down the volume so that what comes out of the amp is only the bass

Howdy do, Mr. Thorne! My 1967 FrankenStarfire has a now-discontinued Hipshot bridge. I can't recall what the model was, but it's essentially a more lightweight, elegant curved-back version of a Fender-style bass bridge with the correct narrow spacing for a Starfire. It did not require shims on the side, but I did opt to put a narrow rectangular aluminum shim under the front of it, to bring the height of the saddles up a bit without having to max out their individual height adjustments. Works wonderfully and I also like the way it looks.

Discussed a little bit on the most recent page of this thread: https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/starfire-tinkering-continued.203908/page-5

When I first got this bass, it was in almost unplayable shape, with a crookedly mounted Leo Quan Badass I bridge that honestly looked way to rigid and bulky for such a beautiful curvy bass. So IF I WERE YOU (which, as far as I know, I am not) I would probably opt for one of the several Hipshot designs available in the narrow spacing that has a little more aesthetic curvature worked in. Of course, that's all a matter of preference.

As for the the Bisonic discussion, traditionally Bisonics are indeed single coils and, as Frono pointed out, the DarkStar/Bisonic tap feature simply taps the coil at a lower wind for the alternate (quieter, though more articulate) DarkStar voicing. Another great thing about the Bisonic design is that they are a relatively quiet single coil in regard to the 60-cycle hum they produce. Some other single coils are much hissier and buzzier, presumably just inherent to the shape and layout of the coil and magnets. Rickenbacker pickups come to mind there; not bad, just different and everything comes with it's pros and cons.

The humbucking Bisonic that Novak offers is the BSX model, which typically comes in the appearance of a big chrome Gibson mudbucker, but underneath the hood are two Bisonic-style coils. My 1967 FrankenStarfire has two of these pickups, but custom-ordered in a guitar-humbucker sized chrome shell/frame with red/yellow tortoise toppers. I originally wired these up to 4 position rotary switches so that I could select between each coil, both coils in parallel, or both coils in series. Eventually, when I added the Epiphone Jack Casady low-impedance bass circuit to the mix, I set the bridge pickup permanently to the North coil, as I found that was the most useful setting for me and ultimately the only one I was using. With the neck pickup however, I like keeping the 4 way rotary options on tap and find myself jumping around between them, depending on the song.

Finally, apologies for my recent absence from discussions here! I've been popping in occasionally but just finished the second week at my new job, so I've been super busy doing my best to be the studious newbie and make sure I'm learning all the ins-and-outs thoroughly, properly, and comprehensibly, which has been leaving me pretty fried mentally -- in a different sense than normal!!

mellowG - I like your DISCLAIMER. I do the same thing...constantly. Unfortunately those readers who read only the email when subscribed don't always read my changes and once in a while that causes confusion. Oh well. Thanks for the pickup education. I have all the parts now for a Novak install. Yahoo.

thornev said:

mellowG - I like your DISCLAIMER. I do the same thing...constantly. Unfortunately those readers who read only the email when subscribed don't always read my changes and once in a while that causes confusion. Oh well. Thanks for the pickup education. I have all the parts now for a Novak install. Yahoo.

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Looking forward to the final product!

I should have mentioned too, the 67 Starfire has less arch to it's top than my 1970 and I'm pretty sure the neck on the 1970 also sits a bit higher off the face of the body. I'm not sure how the NS models compare on these details, but that could of course change how well a flat Hipshot bridge may fit.

I tried resting the Hipshot on the top just below the stock bridge and it does rock back and forth so I'm going to have to design some kind of shim or something to ensure the Hipshot will remain level and unmoveable. The stock bridge does not sit flat against the top so I could fashion a block on top of which the Hipshot would be mounted. I'm not a great carpenter however so fashioning a block with the exact curvature of the top will be a challenge.

Stewart-MacDonald sells a routing template and rear cover for guitars:


Anyone ever considered? I just might. I'll have to verify that there's enough wood on which the cover can sit and be securely screwed down.

This is interesting... The stock bridge sits only on top of 2 pieces of foam and is stabilized only by the 2 bridge height adjustment screws and the 2 rear screws into the top. So I believe if I can find some sturdy foam (maybe use the 2 pieces already there?) I could let the Hipshot sit on it (with the 5 screws) and somehow stabilize the front of the Hipshot. Hmmm. Unfortunately the 5 Hipshot screw holes don't align with the 2 stock screw holes.

That’s the challenge in getting the new bridge installed straight-where to align the screw holes.
I have 4 basses. Two have gotten hipshot replacements (Gibson, Ric).
Two have survived with their originals(Pbass and STARFIRE!!). I like the Starfire bridge though I wish the e saddle intonation slot was longer.
I think the foam is your best option if it is a small gap. Trying to make a wood base would be hard. Taking a leaf from the Starfire, foam is a good idea.