Requesting a Lesson on Spruce Types

GAD · Jul 18, 2021

As I delve deeper into acoustics and archtops I’m seeing more distinctions that I don’t understand. Today’s ignorance is spruce.

I’ve seen mentioned (likely not an exhaustive list):

Spruce
Engelmann Spruce
European spruce
German spruce
Adirondack spruce
Sitka spruce

Please help this aging rocker understand the benefits/drawbacks of each and feel free to fill in any I’ve missed.

Thanks!

AcornHouse · Jul 18, 2021

There’s also Lutz and various other “designer” cross breeds.
Heres one primer, just dealing with North American varieties.
https://acousticguitar.com/a-tonewood-primer-how-to-pick-the-right-materials-for-your-optimal-sound/

AcornHouse · Jul 18, 2021

Another good overview.
http://goodallguitars.com/woods/

GGJaguar · Jul 18, 2021

European spruce is too generic a term. German, Italian and Carpathian spruce are all Picea abies (in the U.S. we call it Norway spruce). It just depends on where it is grown (which can make a difference, of course). Same for red spruce (commonly called Adirondack spruce). Most of what the large companies, like Martin, use is from Maine or Canada, not the Adirondack region. Some luthiers source red spruce from the Smokey Mountain region, too.

Stuball48 · Jul 18, 2021

Maybe a little help:

Tone Woods

SFIV1967 · Jul 18, 2021

GGJaguar said:
German, Italian and Carpathian spruce are all Picea abies (in the U.S. we call it Norway spruce). It just depends on where it is grown (which can make a difference, of course).

I had written a few words about the famous spruce Stradivari used:

https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/for-all-you-wood-geeks.206676/post-1938568

Ralf

cutrofiano · Jul 18, 2021

Here some input of mine on the wide grain (Adirondack or fast grown other types of spruce) / tight grain (Alpine...) topic:

Sitka Spruce & Rosewood: F-150RCE (GAD) No. 71153 (2013) vs. No. 72820 (2014)

I have bought a second F-150RCE (GAD) (too low priced to let go...) and I share the comparison with you. Here comes No. 71153 (2013): And here comes No. 72820 (2014): This is what an expert says about the Sitka spruce top: [...] They are pretty much equal from an acoustic...

letstalkguild.com

Rayk · Jul 18, 2021

Moon spruce ! Might be my next top if can afford another custom .

merlin6666 · Jul 19, 2021

Rayk said:
Moon spruce ! Might be my next top if can afford another custom .

Just make sure it's not a fake and you get the video documentation that the tree was indeed felled by chanting virgins at the strike of midnight under a full moon.

SFIV1967 · Jul 19, 2021

merlin6666 said:
Just make sure it's not a fake and you get the video documentation that the tree was indeed felled by chanting virgins at the strike of midnight under a full moon.

It's a big thing in Switzerland! And: Full Moon does not work !

Specialty moon wood - Tonewood Switzerland

General Feature and Characteristics of Tonewood

www.tonewood.ch

Moonspruce - best EuroSpruce: MoonSpruce + other Tonewoods

European + other tonewoods for luthiers of guitars & archtop specialized in all kinds of european, german, alpine, italian, swiss, spruce, moonwood, picea abies, picea orientalis, caucasian spruce

www.best-eurospruce.com

"These traditional rules for getting best tonewood are – simplified – as following:

The best trees grow on the northwest slope of a mountain on altitudes from 1000 meter/3500 feet up to the limit of vegetation.
The best trees measure ca. 50 centimetres/ 20+ inch diameter; considering the slow growth such a tree is ca. 300 years old (that’s when a tree hits it’s peak).
At these altitudes a tree grows around 1 millimetre/ 0.4 inch each year in radius = distance from the grain lines. Using a little mathematics it comes out to ca. 20 grain lines/inch, seldom up to 25+ grain lines/inch what is commonly considered to be one criteria for a “mastergrade”). Nature simply limits mastergrade tops.
Cut an according tree within the last quarter of waning moon (end of waning moon phase) in the wintertime after the growing period of the tree has stopped (low sap flow).
Let this tree as it is in the forrest for stabilization - including it’s branches and bark - until a first step of drying is done by nature and the cut tree tries to start to grow again after the end of wintertime (this is nowadays no more possible due to bark beetle plague).
Then bring it down to the mill, get split logs out of it and cut these into tonewood. Air-dry the milling results."

Ralf

Rayk · Jul 19, 2021

merlin6666 said:
Just make sure it's not a fake and you get the video documentation that the tree was indeed felled by chanting virgins at the strike of midnight under a full moon.

Haha you really know your moon spruce ! Lol

Rayk · Jul 19, 2021

SFIV1967 said:
It's a big thing in Switzerland! And: Full Moon does not work !

Specialty moon wood - Tonewood Switzerland

General Feature and Characteristics of Tonewood

www.tonewood.ch

Moonspruce - best EuroSpruce: MoonSpruce + other Tonewoods

European + other tonewoods for luthiers of guitars & archtop specialized in all kinds of european, german, alpine, italian, swiss, spruce, moonwood, picea abies, picea orientalis, caucasian spruce

www.best-eurospruce.com

"These traditional rules for getting best tonewood are – simplified – as following:

The best trees grow on the northwest slope of a mountain on altitudes from 1000 meter/3500 feet up to the limit of vegetation.

The best trees measure ca. 50 centimetres/ 20+ inch diameter; considering the slow growth such a tree is ca. 300 years old (that’s when a tree hits it’s peak).
At these altitudes a tree grows around 1 millimetre/ 0.4 inch each year in radius = distance from the grain lines. Using a little mathematics it comes out to ca. 20 grain lines/inch, seldom up to 25+ grain lines/inch what is commonly considered to be one criteria for a “mastergrade”). Nature simply limits mastergrade tops.

Cut an according tree within the last quarter of waning moon (end of waning moon phase) in the wintertime after the growing period of the tree has stopped (low sap flow).

Let this tree as it is in the forrest for stabilization - including it’s branches and bark - until a first step of drying is done by nature and the cut tree tries to start to grow again after the end of wintertime (this is nowadays no more possible due to bark beetle plague).

Then bring it down to the mill, get split logs out of it and cut these into tonewood. Air-dry the milling results."

Ralf

Annnnnd Cut ! That’s a wrap !

GAD · Jul 19, 2021

Thank you all!

This one especially is exactly what I was looking for:

AcornHouse said:
Another good overview.
http://goodallguitars.com/woods/

GAD · Jul 19, 2021

Here's a fun view inside my slightly autistic brain:

Until I'd watched the awesome vid that Ralf posted about Swiss Moon Spruce, I never realized that spruce is "Christmas Tree" wood. Honestly, I never even realized that it was a kind of pine. And the farm I grew up on was "Pine Hill Farm"!

As my wife has told me repeatedly, I'm the dumbest smart guy she's ever met.

GAD · Jul 19, 2021

That guy's absolute passion for tonewoods is contagious! Watching him with these piece of cocobolo was wonderful:

AcornHouse · Jul 19, 2021

GAD said:
That guy's absolute passion for tonewoods is contagious! Watching him with these piece of cocobolo was wonderful:

Yes, but that’s a dangerous pastime. Cocobolo is notorious for causing developed allergies from repeated contact with its sawdust. Not always, but enough to be cautious.

cutrofiano · Jul 20, 2021

AcornHouse said:
Cocobolo is notorious for causing developed allergies from repeated contact with its sawdust

Same for rosewood, mahagony and numerous others...

chazmo · Jul 20, 2021

cutrofiano said:
Same for rosewood, mahagony and numerous others...

cutrofiano, I think cocobolo is particularly bad re: respiratory distress. Perhaps it's a specific allergy. At least that's what I've heard from a number of builders who use other rosewoods and mahogany all the time.

adorshki · Jul 20, 2021

chazmo said:
cutrofiano, I think cocobolo is particularly bad re: respiratory distress. Perhaps it's a specific allergy. At least that's what I've heard from a number of builders who use other rosewoods and mahogany all the time.

Prob'ly the specific terpene that gives it its specific scent, all the rosewoods have an individual "profile" combination (like Brazilian's "bubblegum" scent), suspect cocobolo's profile contains a particularly irritating terpene or combo thereof.

AcornHouse · Jul 20, 2021

adorshki said:
Prob'ly the specific terpene that gives it its specific scent, all the rosewoods have an individual "profile" combination (like Brazilian's "bubblegum" scent), suspect cocobolo's profile contains a particularly irritating terpene or combo thereof.

It’s the quinones

https://www.finewoodworking.com/forum/cocobolo-toxicity

Requesting a Lesson on Spruce Types

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