So, here's how it all worked out... (Guild D40 / F50R)

Jackson Quinn · Aug 11, 2013

Hey, my name is Jackson Quinn. I posted on this forum initially several months ago, to get some advice on a D40 Standard I was going to buy. I had some problems, and eventually contacted Guild directly. It's a much more complex story than that, but I'm not going to get into it here. The end result is that Guild (even being a division of Fender which I worried might detract from the small-shop vibe) really did right by me, and we were able to come to an agreement. Again, I'd prefer not to get into all the little specifics (it's a long story), but I ended up with a brand new vintage burst F-50R. It is truly a magnificent instrument. It's like playing the OCEAN. And not some polluted, mid-life ocean; pristine, six years old again, summer at Grandma's ocean. For real.

I know you guys are all about pictures, but I don't have a camera. I actually don't even have a cell phone, which might fill in for a decent camera in a pinch, but I'll see what I can do.

I'd also like to apologize for not getting back to you guys. I know you probably weren't waiting with bated breath (and likely do not even remember the beginnings of this incident) but you were all very helpful to me, and I should have paid you the courtesy of at least letting you all know how it turned out. Truth is, the whole situation was a little hectic and it coincided with me being hired at a new job, and I actually forgot that I even had an account here. But, anyway, sorry about that.

I'm not totally sure if I'm going to keep this instrument yet; I may sell it or trade it. The tone is exactly what I'm looking for, but I do a lot of fingerstyle and have sort of clumsy finger-pads, if that makes sense. I'm used to a 1 3/4 nut. I don't mind the rounder fretboard radius, in fact I kind of like it. But the nut is becoming an issue. A lot of fingerpickers prefer smaller-bodied instruments (more articulate, easier to stimulate the smaller top with a light touch) and I like 'em too, but the tone I've been searching for is a big, boomy lush kind of thing. I use a thumb pick and metal fingerpicks, and with all that the big top just rings. I can see how it would be hard to drive it with a quieter passage, or with bare fingers, but I'm having no trouble. I've been getting this John Fahey, "American Primitive" kind of sound. Which isn't necessarily what I'm going for or anything, just giving you a reference point. I'm starting to sound like me.

So, I keep making up my mind to sell it, to move up to one of the Orpheum models or another brand with a nut-width I'm more accustomed to, but then I think about it and have trouble imagining a guitar that sounds quite as good... I don't know. I'll have to go do some side-by-side comparisons. I'd think on this one carefully, I don't want to end up with an "always regretted getting rid of..." story.

Well, we'll see. For now, I'm pretty damn happy, though!

learnintoplay62 · Aug 11, 2013

Congrats and welcome back. The larger nut size appears to be an issue for some people though. Have fun during your search.

Mad Rose · Aug 11, 2013

A 1 3/4" nut is a must for me...esp for fingerpicking. With my fingers, I struggle too much hitting bad notes w/ anything less. Since you like the tone so much, you could try replacing the nut for wider spaced one & see if that gives you enough room for your playing style before you decide to let it go...

So, I keep making up my mind to sell it, to move up to one of the Orpheum models.

There is an Orpheum Jumbo Model that has a 1.80" nut width...!
http://guildguitars.com/instruments/details/?partno=3874000837#simpleContained4

Jackson Quinn · Aug 11, 2013

I know! I really like that. With 1.80 spacing and 24.75 scale, it's almost like it's specifically designed to be a fingerstyle jumbo! Such a thing is unheard of, since "fingerstyle guitars" are usually the small bodies. That instrument almost seems made for my needs, but I'm torn... and money is a factor. Even if I could sell the F50R, I'd still need to save. And I'd really have to play anything else I was considering first, because if the tone doesn't at least match the one I've got, forget it...

Bill Ashton · Aug 11, 2013

Dave Van Ronk seemed to do pretty good with his F50R...rumour has it he never changed his strings, neither... =)

Putmonk · Aug 12, 2013

Good to hear all is sorted out and Guild have done you right.

I know I'm prejudiced but I would never sell the guitar. I think you'll might regret it!

Jort

charliea · Aug 12, 2013

Jackson Quinn said:
Hey, my name is Jackson Quinn.
I'm not totally sure if I'm going to keep this instrument yet; I may sell it or trade it. The tone is exactly what I'm looking for, but I do a lot of fingerstyle and have sort of clumsy finger-pads, if that makes sense. I'm used to a 1 3/4 nut. I don't mind the rounder fretboard radius, in fact I kind of like it. But the nut is becoming an issue. A lot of fingerpickers prefer smaller-bodied instruments (more articulate, easier to stimulate the smaller top with a light touch) and I like 'em too, but the tone I've been searching for is a big, boomy lush kind of thing. I use a thumb pick and metal fingerpicks, and with all that the big top just rings. I can see how it would be hard to drive it with a quieter passage, or with bare fingers, but I'm having no trouble. I've been getting this John Fahey, "American Primitive" kind of sound. Which isn't necessarily what I'm going for or anything, just giving you a reference point. I'm starting to sound like me.

I believe the sound is what matters. You'll get used to the 1/16 narrower nut in no time, and maybe even come to prefer it. Tell you the truth, I sometimes wonder exactly what "fingerstyle" is. If you go over to AGF there are plenty of guys who grow their nails long with the aid of special vitamins and coatings, then proceed to pluck ghastly "Whale Music" that would drive most marine mammals onto the nearest beach. Others strike an artful pose, then produce a ponderous parade of notes that would empty an elevator unless it's in a very short building. At least there are guys like Kottke and Dykes who amaze with their skill. My guess is that with your F50R and fingerpicks you can sound a whole lot better than the first two types. Kottke and Dykes? Better start practicing.

zombywoof · Aug 12, 2013

When looking at string spread it is not only nut width but string spacing at the saddle which for whatever reason folks often seem to overlook.

kitniyatran · Aug 12, 2013

zombywoof said:
When looking at string spread it is not only nut width but string spacing at the saddle which for whatever reason folks often seem to overlook.

I have a theory, untested, that in many cases a good luthier could reslot or replace the nut & saddle for a wider feel at the same width.

Jeff_L · Aug 13, 2013

After I bought my F50R I took it to my luthier for a setup. He, knowing me and my fat, stubby, fingers, offered to make a new nut with wider string spacing. He moved the two E strings outside the "racing stripes" on the finger board and spaced the other strings accordingly. This resulted in the strings having almost the same spacing as on the Goodall with a 1 3/4" nut, and both are a finger-picker's dream.

Ask your luthier about doing something like that before you sell it.

Jeff

chazmo · Aug 13, 2013

You could have this customized, Jackson. No reason you can't spread the strings out a bit at the nut... Like Jeff_L just said, there is some breathing room there if you want to fashion your own nut (or talk to a luthier about it).

That said, I'm glad you're enjoying the sound. I have played many F-50Rs, and loved them all.

Jackson Quinn · Aug 13, 2013

Yeah, the sound is pretty breathtaking.... And ballsy too, as a jumbo should be.

I agree whole-heartedly with charliea's sentiment. I really don't like the "fingerstyle" label either, especially because it's not really what I do. I just say that to make it easier to understand without a lot of lengthy explanation. It's not easy to translate sound into text. I didn't even like using the John Fahey reference; what I've heard of his I liked, but I've only heard a little of his stuff and only recently. I listened to it because a friend said a riff I played had that vibe, and so it did (not nearly as much technical skill, but a similar mood). It's just easier to give people a general idea than to try and explain in words what your music ACTUALLY sounds like. When you try to do that, you usually just come off as pretentious.

But I'm not into the vague folk-art of "Fingerstyle" so much as what might more accurately be called finger-pickin', and the aforementioned masters, I believe, would agree with me.

Anyway, I appreciate the feedback. I think the bridge string spacing point is well made. For some reason, people almost always overlook that, even though it might be more important. It's often not even listed in the specs. But in this case, both nut and bridge are issues. The bridge area because it's hard to get those metal picks in and out nimbly and the nut because I think my fingers are just shaped kind of funny. The tips are narrow, but the "pad" of my finger protrudes and eventually makes contact with the next string down if it's open (if they are both pushed against the fret, there's no problem). I think just some better technique might do wonders though, so I'll have to keep practicing. I'm a little rusty lately.... I have the sinking feeling I've already solved this problem and then unlearned the solution.

But that's all good advice, I'll see if my luthier/guitar tech can elaborate on those ideas.

Thanks,
-Jack.

chazmo · Aug 13, 2013

I had another thought for you... How about stringing up an F-512 as a 6-string?

Not exactly the same thing as an F-50R -- I think the bracing is a little heftier on the 12-string -- but I'll bet the sound is close.

You might be a really good candidate for a custom-made build, Jackson. It is unfortunate that Guild doesn't offer any real customization options, especially for these playability-related changes... If you head over to the custom shop forum on the AGF, you might get some additional suggestions from the guys who do this kind of thing for a living. Just a thought.

J-F C · Aug 13, 2013

Putmonk said:
Good to hear all is sorted out and Guild have done you right.

I know I'm prejudiced but I would never sell the guitar. I think you'll might regret it!

Jort

charliea said:
I believe the sound is what matters. You'll get used to the 1/16 narrower nut in no time, and maybe even come to prefer it.

Jeff_L said:
After I bought my F50R I took it to my luthier for a setup. He, knowing me and my fat, stubby, fingers, offered to make a new nut with wider string spacing. He moved the two E strings outside the "racing stripes" on the finger board and spaced the other strings accordingly. This resulted in the strings having almost the same spacing as on the Goodall with a 1 3/4" nut, and both are a finger-picker's dream.

Ask your luthier about doing something like that before you sell it.

Jeff

+1 to all this.

SFIV1967 · Aug 14, 2013

Mad Rose said:
There is an Orpheum Jumbo Model that has a 1.80" nut width...!
http://guildguitars.com/instruments/details/?partno=3874000837#simpleContained4

The lowest price so far is from Rocky with $3199: http://www.ebay.com/itm/290926581387
Interesting that he has the natural top version listed for $3799: http://www.ebay.com/itm/290904897015
Ralf

Mad Rose · Aug 14, 2013

You'd think the bursted one would cost more..? I'd be more inclined to go w/ the natural one. Makes that kool marquetry inlaid on the top pop-out...imo

Jackson Quinn · Aug 14, 2013

Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to hang on to it for a while before I make a decision. I may get used to the 1 11/16 nut. I really didn't think I'd even notice it, given that the difference between 1 3/4 and 1 11/16 is just 1/16. But I was playing a Taylor before, one of their cheaper instruments, that I had had for a long time. So I think I got pretty used to a certain spacing at the nut AND bridge. Plus, I think Taylors usually have a 16 in. fretboard radius, and the Guild's got a 12 in. radius. That might also be making a difference, but I believe it's for the better, as chording is a little more comfortable on the Guild. I'm a younger guy (21), and I'd bought the Taylor when I chose to upgrade from my very first guitar, when I was around 15. I just wanted a nicer guitar than I had, I didn't really care about doing much research and comparative shopping. So when I made the upgrade this time, I just figured I'd move up in the Taylor line, to a nicer instrument. And I did, at first, but I wasn't wholly satisfied with the tone, and that's when I really jumped into the comparisons and research and just generally learning about guitars. I've learned a lot, as this has become less about the guitar I'm going to own and more about knowing more about my instrument, being able to understand how everything works and what effects those things are likely to have on playability, sound, etc.

But I was surprised to find I really NOTICED the 1/16 in. difference. I had started to feel like it was more of a marketing ploy than anything, "1 3/4 means it's good for fingers, 1 11/16 means it's good for chords" kind of thing, when it's obviously going to be infinitely more complex, with many more variables. But, with all the variables combined, I do notice it being a little uncomfortable.

But I think that's all very good advice, I need to see if I can get used to it and if I can't there are some options to explore before ditching it.

Also, I definitely feel like this is the beginning of an "I always regretted it" story. So I'm being extra careful.

Thanks,
-Jackson.

P.S.: Sometimes bursts will cost less because they're able to use a lower grade of spruce if the imperfections will be covered by the burst, especially with Adirondack. But generally, bursts cost more, I imagine for the time involved. In the Orpheum series, they all cost the same, (tradeoff is probably about even), so I'd want to check out the instrument before I bought it. I am not saying ANYTHING negative about Rocky Street Sounds, as I have no experience with them and I'm sure they are a respectable dealer. But I have found some other less reputable dealers selling Guilds with issues from the factory as "New" at a discount (I guess it's still technically new if the retailer isn't responsible for the damage). I'm just saying I'd check it out first.

gadgetfreak · Aug 14, 2013

charliea, omg you had me cracking up. To the op, I would stick with the tone if it's that good but what do I know. I'm trying to learn finger style myself and I have no clue what my guitars measure. I just keep going at it until I make it sound like the man in the video I'm watching. I'm not doing so great,lol but I am definitely not getting rid of either of my Guilds cause of it.

If your at that point in your playing career where you know exactly what you need it should be a no brainer,even if money is an issue. You know if you need another guitar or you can make that one work, at least I do. I know after playing for awhile on a guitar if she is staying or getting put back up for adoption. Good luck to you

davismanLV · Aug 14, 2013

I have three guitars (2 Guilds and 1 Washburn) that are identical in neck width and string spacing. And I'm used to that. When I bought my Taylor last year, I knew it was different, but it was hard to figure how. I finally grabbed the roomies calipers or that little measuring thingie and did some measuring. The funny thing is string spacing is WIDER on the Taylor, however the neck is NARROWER than the other guitars. Which explains why I tend to slip off the edge of the fretboard when playing the Taylor. Also, my modified fingering on chords (for somewhat large hands) doesn't work as well on the Taylor. It takes some adjustment and going from one instrument to the other (of two that are different) requires a bit of adjustment time.....

What this works out to for me is that I'm sure they could widen the string spacing on the 2 Guilds. There's enough room on the fretboard (more than the Taylor) and it should be a pretty easy fix. That's my point, although it took me a minute to get around to it...... :eagerness:

Bill Ashton · Aug 14, 2013

Tom, is your Taylor a 12-fret? An old friend just bought one and while it is a wicked nice guitar, there was just something about it I could not put my finger on...

AH, 12-fret! The bridge is located differently...being a former Telecaster player who always butted the heel of his right hand on the bridge...with the accompanying
irritations...(maybe ya gotta be a Tele player to understand)...that was it! My right hand was all off, just couldn't place it right.

So, here's how it all worked out... (Guild D40 / F50R)

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