Brazilian in Guilds ?

What is the chronological history of the use of Brazilian rosewood in which Guild models?

Thanks,

Dave

I can't give you a hard cut off date but I doubt anyone can. I can tell you that brazilian pieces did show up on guitars made into the early 70s. I had a D-50 that had indian rosewood sides and a brazilian back that was, by serial number, a 1973 guitar. I have also heard that some guitars didn't always get a serial number right away so it might be that it was made earlier and sat for some time before being given a number. You see transition Martins from time to time, usually D-35s with the 3 piece backs, that have mixed woods like that. I suppose that might have been wood that was left after it proved too small for a 2 piece back or maybe one side of a set had a defect or was broken. Could be a lot of reasons for that situation.

kydave said:

What is the chronological history of the use of Brazilian rosewood in which Guild models?

Thanks,

Dave

Click to expand...

Sorry Dave but I think you can forget it! I mean a very well organized company like Martin has a 'more or less' official cut-off date for the use of Brazilian rosewood and so far we've see many exceptions to that rule.
Guild started using East Indian Rosewood as early as 1963 and you'll find both Brazilian and East Indian on Guild guitars up till the end of the '60s and into the very early '70s, sometimes even mixed on the same instrument. Brazilian is pretty rare though after 1971 but occasionally you will find one that has it.
During the first half of the '70s Guild used a lot of Indian rosewood with unusual wild looking grain, or I should say wilder-looking grain than the straight grain material we normally associate with East Indian rosewood. People often take that for Brazilian, which it is not.
As far as fingerboards and bridges is concerned, you will find Brazilian rosewood used for that up to the end of the '70s. Again there doesn't seem to be a fixed date because the different species were both used all through the '70s. I do not know if Guild just had a big stock or that the supplier of the woods or parts still offered it at that time.
When the Westerly plant closed in 2001, there was still a box with Brazilian rosewood bridges in the repair department.
I was able to get some and I assume some of the other Westerly gang members got some as well.
Some of these bridges look really nice. If I can find the time I will make a picture later!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

Here are some bridges that came out of the repair dept. when Guild was closed in 2001:




As you can see, some off that stuff is really nice!



Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

Hans, you are THE MAN! Thanks for posting those pics.

Now to muddy the water up a little bit...

In '79 or early '80 I was working on an engineering project in Westerly. A good friend knew the manager of the Guild factory and arranged a tour for me.

At one point he pointed to a stack of wood and said, "That's Brazilian rosewood. Martin is always making offers to buy it from us, but we won't sell it to them."

At that time of my life I wouldn't have been able to identify any type of rosewood, so I can't personally verify that it was indeed Braz.

To this day I remain amazed at the amount of handwork I witnessed that day going into the guitars. Extremely labor intensive operation and highly skilled craftsman everywhere.

6

'74 D-40
'06 D-55
'06 D-40BJ
'06 F-412

6L6 said:

In '79 or early '80 I was working on an engineering project in Westerly. A good friend knew the manager of the Guild factory and arranged a tour for me.

At one point he pointed to a stack of wood and said, "That's Brazilian rosewood. Martin is always making offers to buy it from us, but we won't sell it to them."

At that time of my life I wouldn't have been able to identify any type of rosewood, so I can't personally verify that it was indeed Braz.

Click to expand...

Hello 6,

If I remember correctly you posted that story before; maybe it was still on the FDP?
Anyway, at that time I already had my doubts. Not that it was impossible for them to have it but I believe that if they had any at that time, it must have been rough blanks for fingerboards.
I mean, ever since the early '80s Guild has not made anything that had a Brazilian rosewood body, so where would they have used the wood for?

But then again, everything is possible ........ especially stuff disappearing into thin air!
Maybe some of the 'old timers' would like to add something on that!

By the way, would you remember the manager's name at the time? Was it Tom Lockwood?

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

If this has been covered somewhere before I apologize. When it is not obvious from a visual inspection, is there a non-destructive way to determine braz from ei rosewood?

eastcoastbuzz said:

If this has been covered somewhere before I apologize. When it is not obvious from a visual inspection, is there a non-destructive way to determine braz from ei rosewood?

Click to expand...

From what I understand, aside from the smell, which is sweet on Brazilian, and vinegary/sour on East Indian, not conclusively. Visually, there will be tendencies (i.e. Brick red usually indicates Brazilian, any purplish coloration is usually indicative of East Indian), but there is enough variation from both varieties to make any visual identification suspect. Many say that the wilder grain indicates Brazilian, but there have been East Indian samples with wild grain as well. Newer guitars, using Brazilian stumpwood, are a very wild grain, and should be easeir to identify. If you are looking at guitars made with the straighter grained woods, I don't think that you can conclusively determine the wood type. You may be able to make an educated guess by referring to documentation (i.e. This is a 1956 Martin D-28, so it is probably rosewood, as Martin did not start using East Indian Rosewood until the mid/late 1960s, or this is a rosewood bodied F50R from 1982, and Guild stopped using Brazilian rosewood in the late 60s/early 70s).

Unless you are a botanist with an electron microscope, and are very familliar with the structures of both wood types, I don't know if you can make any correct determinations.

If you open up a guitar case, and you get hit with the scent of sugar, or as another poster said, bubble gum, it is a Brazilian Rosewood guitar. If it smells like vinegar, or a sort of sour smell, it is an East Indian guitar. If you don't get any smell, you're on your own. This makes an assumption that the guitar and the case go together; I'm leaving out shenanigans like people putting perfume into the guitar case.

I have a Gibson MK72 (Brazilian Rosewood), and it was made in 1977-1978. It still smells sweet everytime I open the guitar case.

Kostas

By the way, would you remember the manager's name at the time? Was it Tom Lockwood?

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Sorry Hans, but no way I can remember his name. And yes, I probably did post the story in the FDP.

I do remember he wasn't the happiest tour guide I've ever had. I think he was pissed that an outsider was seeing the inside ops of his factory and taking up his time. However, the guy who arranged the tour said he never heard anything negative back from the Manager.

6

Look at this nice bridge on an early '70s D-25!



Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

Beautiful!!!!

6

Hans,

Do you have any 12-string bridges, and more to the point, do you have any for sale?!

Thanks!
Glenn//.

wileypickett said:

Hans,

Do you have any 12-string bridges, and more to the point, do you have any for sale?!

Thanks!
Glenn

Click to expand...

Hello Glenn,

For what model and what period? There are a lot of different varieties.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

Hello Hans,

I was going to write you directly via your website, but I see you have problems with "comcast.net" addresses -- which is what I use -- so I'll just reply here.

I look for 12-string Guilds to repair -- I've only had to replace one bridge so far, and I bought a contemporary replacement bridge through Guild / Fender, which was slightly bigger than the original, but worked fine -- the saddle slot and bridge pin holes were in exactly the same place, and being a hair bigger, it covered up most of the damage made to the top when the original bridge came off.

Depending on how many different 12-string bridges you have and how much you charge per bridge, I might like to get a selection against possible future repairs.

Thanks!

Glenn Jones
Cambridge, MA

kostask said:

eastcoastbuzz said:

If this has been covered somewhere before I apologize. When it is not obvious from a visual inspection, is there a non-destructive way to determine braz from ei rosewood?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

"From what I understand, aside from the smell, which is sweet on Brazilian, and vinegary/sour on East Indian, not conclusively. Visually, there will be tendencies (i.e. Brick red usually indicates Brazilian, any purplish coloration is usually indicative of East Indian)..."

Click to expand...

Vietnamese Rosewood has a reddish color. I wouldn't judge Brazilian solely by its brick-red tint.
VN Rosewood is reputed to have a sound similar to Braz. I like the sound a lot. But I like the Cambodian
and EIR sound better.

As far as sheer beauty goes though, I think VN Rosewood is the prettiest of all of them.

marcellis said:

kostask said:

eastcoastbuzz said:

If this has been covered somewhere before I apologize. When it is not obvious from a visual inspection, is there a non-destructive way to determine braz from ei rosewood?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

"From what I understand, aside from the smell, which is sweet on Brazilian, and vinegary/sour on East Indian, not conclusively. Visually, there will be tendencies (i.e. Brick red usually indicates Brazilian, any purplish coloration is usually indicative of East Indian)..."

Click to expand...

Vietnamese Rosewood has a reddish color. I wouldn't judge Brazilian solely by its brick-red tint.
VN Rosewood is reputed to have a sound similar to Braz. I like the sound a lot. But I like the Cambodian
and EIR sound better.

As far as sheer beauty goes though, I think VN Rosewood is the prettiest of all of them.

Click to expand...

But which one smells the best? :mrgreen:

Thanks for the info, Hans and others!

I've gotta pick up your book one of these days, but I guess it would tell me what you just told me, on this subject at least. Lots more to learn from it, though, I'm sure.

Thanks again,

Dave

Here's the rosewood bridge on my '71 D-44...

What do you all think? Brazilian?

(the black horn and pearl pins were made by the late Gordon Orth, just a week before his accident in June)
Dave

If I were to see it today & not know it is from 1971, I'd say Vietnamese Rosewood.
But it is EXTREMELY unlikely that Guild or anyone else was purchasing VN Rosewood
during the war years.

So knowing what I know - Brazilian. Just looking at it, Vietnamese Rosewood.

Man I want that smell in my guitar case. I have an old Martin that stunk so bad of cigarette smoke when I first got it I was afraid the smoke detector was gonna go off. I've tried everything I can think of to get rid of the smell but it just hangs on. I put rice in the guitar and shook it all around to get any dust or bug crud out. I put baking soda in to absorb the smell and let it sit for a week. Vaccuumed all that out and let it hang on the wall for 'bout a year while I was trying upholstry shampoo, baking soda, Febreeze and sitting open in the garage to get the stink out of the case. It's better but when you first open the case it still hits you with a wiff of Turkish latkia tobacco...strong stuff. Can't play anything but the blues on that guitar.