What Gibson is most similar to a Princeton Reverb?

fungusyoung

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Thinking of something between 10- 20 watts (12- 18 would be perfect) with Reverb, no need for Trem unless it's part of the package. I'm sure somebody here has some ideas... right, Cap'n???!!!! :lol:

Just loving my little '60 GA-5... recently ran an Esquire through a Catalinbread Dirty Little Secret box into it, and that was arguably the best tone I've ever gotten out of any setup.
 

capnjuan

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Hi Michael ... so ... I guess my interest in Gibson amps is hanging out pretty far..... :wink: ... The closest Gibson match to a Princeton Reverb, the AA1164 model, is a Gibson GA19RVT circuit here. both with 4 preamp tubes, trem and reverb, twin 6V6s, GZ34 rectifier (PR) and 5Y3 rectifier (GA19RVT). Both have one preamp tube dedicated to reverb drive/recovery and another 1/2 to tremolo.

On this webpage, a guy tries the match-'em-up exercise which is as much schematic-driven as it is tone-driven. For example, he equates the PR to any of a Gibson 20RVT(Minuteman: twin 6BQ5s), Gibson GA25RVT (Hawk: twin 6BQ5s), or a Gibson GA35RVT (Lancer; twin 7591s). As far as this gentleman's observations go, I'll leave it to you; you have/had both a GA5 w/ a 6V6 and one with a 6BQ5/EL84 ... so, if the two tubes sounded the same to you, then you might give this guy's remarks some weight. I don't think they sound alike so it's hard for me to get on board with his comparisons.

Our new BBer DgP just bought a GA19RVT discussed Here. The thread also contains a link to an eBay auction where a VGC GA19RVT recently went for big money (DgP's wasn't inexpensive!). The PR runs its 6V6s at 410V, the GA19RVT closer to 300V, they have different phase inverter designs, and the PR has a slightly larger OT all of which suggests the PR will be cleaner at higher volumes but will lack the Gibson's timbre-rich, highly compressed brown-sound.

Gibson got its GA19RVT tweed model to market sooner than Fender produced the Princeton Reverb. Shortly afterwards, Gibson morphed the tweed model to the 'Crest' version; a very-good selling amp; early models with 6V6s, later ones with 7591s. Can't say for sure but believe the 'Crest' model to produce a cleaner tone than the tweed version ... Gibson continued with smallish output transformers under its cost engineering mantra: "We never met a cost we couldn't avoid". Hope this helps. John
 

fungusyoung

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WOW :shock:... they sure have gone up in price!

I may just try to snag a Silverface era Princeton Reverb... as much as that might break your heart. They are great amps, though, but I always thought Fenders were a bit overpriced... seems that these older Gibsons are finally catching up! I was just hoping to get something in that 12- 18 watt range with real nice on board reverb.

Thanks, as always, for your help & insight.
 

capnjuan

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So long as you hang onto the GA5 ... my heart won't be broken :wink: . Yes; the tweed-era reverb Gibsons have gone off the chart. In the tweed cosmetics, Gibson only produced three reverb amps; the GA19RVT as described, the GA30 Invader (where did they get the names?) twin 6V6s, 12" and 8" speaker, and the GA77RV with 6L6s, a choke in the power supply, and a 15" speaker. Gibson then changed the cosmetics and the electronics and the line's characteristic Deluxe-style tone, especially among the less-expensive models, was gone forever. The irony is that the less expensive amps from the late '50s/early '60s are held in much higher tone and financial regard than the less expensive amps from the mid '60s.

I've never had the pleasure with a GA77 mostly because I don't need the additional power and probably wouldn't appreciate the cleaner tones of the 6L6s. That said and of the three amps, I own the one to own; the GA30RV (I never refer to it as an Invader :evil: ). The same primary circuit as a GA16/GA18, reverb, and one additional gain stage. The two speakers, in terms of moving air, are effectively the same as a 20" speaker although I have blocked low frequencies from reaching my 8" (ceramic) speaker due to premature breakup. A dirty tweed GA77 recently went begging at $900/MIN on eBay and another re-covered model has been languishing over on the Gear Page around $900 for quite a while.

Just don't tell me you love your SF PR .... and we'll be okay! Best, John
 

jp

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You probably already know this fungusyoung, but Epiphone (Gibson) put out almost identical amps in different clothing. One option is to look for the Epi alternative to the Gibby Tweed Falcon, the Epiphone Pathfinder EA-28RVT. Although I haven't compared schematics, I'm almost certain that the guts are the same. It's probably worth checking (schematicsheaven.com) Instead of the tweed covering, they're covered in gray tolex with cab in same dimensions. They shared parts such as knobs, handles, corners, etc. They also have corresponding models to the Crestline series.

Here's one on the bay for comparison, although this dealer will never sell this at that price. I would think you can score one for $500, possibly even less, and they're around. I think they're still under the radar.
 

capnjuan

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Hi Michael and JP; yes, the Epiphone Pathfinder EA-28RVT is a dupe of a Gibson but, if it makes a difference, it's a dupe of the 'Crest' model GA19RVT, not the earlier 'Tweed' model. Reference Schematics:

Epiphone Pathfinder EA-28RVT
'Crest' Gibson GA19RVT version
'Tweed' Gibson GA19RVT

A couple of weeks ago, I tried figure out what it would take to mod the 'Crest' version back to a 'Tweed' ('Blackface it' in Fenderspeak :wink: ) and, as best I could determine, not all that much and put the pics in Here. I've had the pleasure with the Tweed version but not with the Crest. 'Zilla reports that his twin 6V6/5Y3 Crest doesn't break up as early as my Tweed did but I'm not engineer enough to know ahead of time whether making these minor adjustments are worth the effort.

Finally, there is another reverb/trem 'tweed' Gibson that I overlooked; the very rare (didn't sell very well) GA2RVT from the 'Maestro' series - intended as accordian amps, schematic below and Here. I posted a pic of one in the Rosetta Tharp thread ... now gone after purging my Photobucket account. The design uses 4 6EU7s and a 12AX7 in the preamp, twin 6V6s, and a 5Y3 rectifier and is the apparent predecessor design to the tweed GA19RVT; same features as the GA2RVT but the GA19RVT uses one less 6EU7. The brown box is the tremolo section and the blue box the reverb. The green box, according to the boys over on the Hoffman BB, is a low frequency oscillation filter that also appears in the GA40LP and GA20T Ranger. In both my GA20Ts, I've bypassed that filter as indicated by the red arrow.

GA2RVTMaestro.jpg



But ... that's it for the older Gibson reverb amps. :( J
 

fungusyoung

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Well, it's kind of amazing to me that the prices of the Gibsons have caught up so quickly.

I just scored a '79 Fender Princeton Reverb for $700. Comes with original footswitch, original speaker + a newer more efficient Eminence Blue Alnico too. Needless to say, I'm pretty happy. What surprises me is how tough it seems to be to find a comparable Gibson for the same price. Granted, I think this is a great deal for a Fender in the condition it's in, etc. because the Princeton Reberbs have really shot up in prices (even Silverface era), but I think the Gibson reverb tanks had some reliability issues anyway so I'm probably better off.

I won't gloat about it any further unless the Cap'n really eggs me on! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Ironically, it will be shipped up here from Florida!
 

capnjuan

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fungusyoung said:
I won't gloat about it any further unless the Cap'n really eggs me on! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Ironically, it will be shipped up here from Florida!
Just don't remind me Michael and we'll be fine :evil: :wink: (and you keep the GA5!) Congratulations though ... for the money, as good as can be found. If I thought I could have replaced it easily, I'd have sold you my reconditioned GA30 but the GA19s / GA30s / GA77s have all run away and hidden themselves .... not to mention costing a fortune.

I think the 'issue' you are referring to in the tweed era Gibson reverb amps is (likely) Seth Lover's choice of a 7199 in the early GA19s. According to Wally Marx' book, both Ted McCarty and Lover were stereophiles and the 7199 - two tubes in one bottle; half 12AX7, the other half a pentode ... a power-style tube - had traction in audio/stereo applications. My GA19/7199 model had modest noise issues with the reverb kicked in; according to the RCA Tube Manual, the 7199 had a noise factor 100 times greater than a 12AX7.

The GA19 was redesigned in the Crest series, they dumped the 7199, subbed in a 6C4 - a single triode - as the recovery side of the reverb equation. But the GA30 and the GA77 both used a 6EU7 for reverb drive and recovery and, at least to me ear, work very well ...... so ... what was the point of the 7199? Today the 7199s are in the $40/$50 range for new / unreliable Sovteks and +/- $100 for vintage Mullard / Siemens and so on.

Anyway, from a top-down view and except for the stumble with the 7199, there's nothing much to distinguish Gibson's reverb circuit from Fender's ... except cost ... although it won't be long before the GA19s are in the same price range as the blackface PRs. Best, John
 

capnjuan

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Hi Michael; ... as they say ... timing is everything ... Gibson GA30RV Craigslisted in Greenpoint NY over the weekend. Seller sez: "great great tone for rock, blues, or jazz". He's right. This one fitted with vintage 8" Jensen alnico, mine with a Jensen C8S ceramic.

3m33p33l2ZZZZZZZZZ95g55888a9850f11f3c.jpg


3n43m63paZZZZZZZZZ95ga1d0fc90bea91ae0.jpg
 

fungusyoung

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Yeah... I guess timing is everything. I could have easily enough gone to Greepoint to pick it up. Thanks for the head's up, John. Think I'll be good with the Princeton Reverb, and I'll be sure not to post anything about it (especially if I like it) after putting it through the paces this coming week. :wink:
 

capnjuan

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fungusyoung said:
Yeah... I guess timing is everything. I could have easily enough gone to Greepoint to pick it up. Thanks for the head's up, John. Think I'll be good with the Princeton Reverb, and I'll be sure not to post anything about it (especially if I like it) after putting it through the paces this coming week. :wink:
Well ... if you start raving about the PR ... it's gonna get ugly 'round here ... :evil: :wink: Just bumping the GA30 for general interest ... and maybe trying to talk myself into another copy. They are very fine old amps ... although I can't think right off what I'd do with a second one. :? :)
 

capnjuan

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The tweed GA77RV below (closed eBay auction link $1,350 :shock: :shock:) is the last of the trio of first-generation Gibson reverb amps; GA19RVT, GA30RV, and GA77RV. Schematic Here. Like the GA30RV; 3X6EU7s, 12AU7 PI, but with 6L6s, fixed bias, a GZ34 rectifier, and 420 volts on the plates v. 325V or so on the GA30 6V6s. Probably 25 watts. Power supply included a choke and amp sold with a 15" speaker. Similar to the AA165 Fender Pro Reverb which, unlike the GA30, had tremolo but ran its 6L6s at close to 470V. A rare amp; not because they were cost-prohibitive when new, they just didn't sell well v. similar Fenders like the Pro Reverb and Super Reverb ... now ... they bring big money :( .

Except for the mold under the tolex at the bottom, VG condition:

ga7701.jpg



Looks like a piece of tape stayed on it too long ...

ga7702.jpg



Just glancing, looks like all original parts including the brown cylinder filter caps. Like the early GA20T, this one has its coupling and bypass caps mounted on the underside of the circuit board ... flippity dippity to get at them; loosening the four input jacks and five controls until they fall out of the faceplate, loosening the hold-down nuts on the circuit board, and flipping the entire circuit board over and out of the chassis.

ga7703.jpg
 

capnjuan

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Hi Michael; that the same model I sold to Bluesdan a while back ... although his is in much better cosmetic and electronic condition than the GP model. SFIII owns the P10R speaker out of it - like the one in the GP amp. Dan's has a Weber P10A125 / Jensen P10Q equivalent in it. I owned the GA19RVT pictured below and Dan's GA18 at the same time and, try as I might, I never got the GA19RVT to sound as good as the GA18 ... and the GA19RVT was a good-running amp.

GA19mix.jpg
 
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