Update on that Ampeg Gemini II

mad dog

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Finally got it back from the tech. He did such a fine job. Remounted and rewired the larger PT. Ditched the cap can altogether, instead installed a tube rectifier socket with a 5U4 (or whatever that number is.) So this is the only Gemini II I've seen that isn't SS rectified. Did some other stuff too. I got it home, put in and biased JJ 6L6s, and dug out some NOS preamp tubes. Wow, what a beautiful sound. A louder, deeper and thicker version of that distinctive Ampeg clean. Even with the extra expense, it's still real low budget for such tone. (Why more players don't pick up on these I don't know.) Now all I need is a Guild!

Michael D.
 

capnjuan

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Hi Michael; congratulations on geting your amp back in good condition sounding good. Yup, the GII was originally fitted with a pair of diodes; nice uptick on the 5U4; that one can handle the voltage characteristics of the 7591s and give you some nice saggy shaggy ooowaaaooowaaa. Easy for me to like it; I don't have to play Shea Stadium.

At the end of the day, I think it's about volume; the 6V6s / 7591s just can't stay with a bass amp and drums at higher volumes. Not the easiest way to get it done but I'm not sure there's a comparable, medium-power, as sweet-sounding a 15" combo tube amp that can be had for much less than what you have in yours not to mention that yours has a renewed, 20-year lease on life. I guess you coulda bought a Clark or Victoria but they would have been 2 - 3 times the cost used and, if bought on eBay, no guarantee that they wouldn't have needed a trip to the vet for shots either.

A final point, your amp uses a 7199 as the output driver. The 7199 is sort of on the expensive side; most of $50 for a JAN Phillips, less for a Sovtek. If your tech didn't do it and you get interested, it'd be worth the trouble to pull the 7199, and the others too, get some contact cleaner and a soft brass bristle brush, and clean the light coat of corrosion off that usually forms on the pins. If you don't have another 7199, begin to suspect yours, or want one for a backup, I've got a Sovtek 7199 here doing nothing; let me know if you're interested. John
 

mad dog

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John: that is mighty neighborly of you on the 7199. Turned out that was one of the pretty well shot tubes, so that one and the reverb driver I got from my tech. The 7199 is new, yes expensive, and seems to do the job nicely.

This Gemini came to me with 6L6s and a super reverb PT. That was the reason I got it. Much as I like 7591s, every Gemini I've tried was lacking in volume. So along comes this bastardized thing ... even with nearly defunct tubes and a truly awful hack job of a mod (PT dangling from the chassis, other foolishness), it still had something extra going on. Now I can really hear it. It's more than just extra volume ... it's that solid bass texture and depth you can get out of 6L6GCs. Still that mostly clean, muscular kind of Ampeg sound, only more of it, more solid. Now that fat magnet CTS ceramic is getting pushed enough so I can hear it working. Those highly effective tone controls (one of the best features of the Geminis) have more to work with too. Ampegs are so cool, I'm liking this one!
 

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Tell you what, I'd rather have a great amp and a lousy guitar than the other way around. Great amps inspire you to play.
 

capnjuan

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Hi Michael; There are hundreds of Dynaco 2XEL34 ST70s driven by 35 year-old 7199s that still operate beautifully. I forgot the transformer switchout was tied to the 6L6s; How about we calls it 'hot-rodded' as opposed to 'bastardized'; seems like Mr. Wizard had a good idea but F'd up the execution although in fairness, the 7591 used to be on the Federal Endangered Species List.

He might have been looking for a work-around to save the amp you're enjoying. There are several model Ampegs from the era that now sit dead for want of an extinct 3-section 6U10; the AC12, B12XY, and GU12 all use the 6U10 to operate the reverb. Any work-around would include re-designing the reverb and, to sustain the amp's gain characteristics, possibly adding another tube....ugh. I passed on the two GIIs that popped up on eBay recently but I think there might be an Ampeg in my future; either the Reverberocket like Jeff's or a GII like yours. Congratulations on your amp! J
 

capnjuan

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Default said:
Tell you what, I'd rather have a great amp and a lousy guitar than the other way around. Great amps inspire you to play.
+1; they inspire because they sound great no matter what you do. Can't play like SRV? Okay, but no reason not to sound as good.
 

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With the deepest respect, fellas, I must take the opposite position. Whenever listening to Leo Kottke, Tommy Emmanuel, Tony Rice, Ed Gerhard, Chet Atkins, Tuck Andress, John Pizzarelli, etcetera ad infinitum, their amplifier is the last thing I consider, if I consider it at all. I acknowledge being amplifier ignorant, schematically handicapped, and tubularly impaired, but I don't recall ever stepping up to any amplifier and exclaiming, "Quick! Gimme a piece-of-crap axe I can plug into this beauty!" Help me understand.
 

capnjuan

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Guildmark said:
With the deepest respect, fellas, I must take the opposite position. Whenever listening to Leo Kottke, Tommy Emmanuel, Tony Rice, Ed Gerhard, Chet Atkins, Tuck Andress, John Pizzarelli, etcetera ad infinitum, their amplifier is the last thing I consider, if I consider it at all.
Hi Mark; maybe it's the difference between listening to the music v. listening to the sound and, to a lesser extent, the degree to which an amplifier or PA is a musical 'instrument'. All the people you mentioned including a certain well-known west coast coffee bar player, delight their listeners with their virtuosity; they all can flat out play.

If a bunch of us had been sitting in Massey Hall in 1971 listening to Neil Young play a set through my stinky old Gibson and then we asked him to play the same set through the Hall's PA, and leaving aside for the moment the partisan idea that Neil Young can never sound bad, chances are that we'd say that Neil's 'concert grade' sound was a more pleasing listening experience than his 'Gibson'-grade sound; more timbre, resonance, depth, clearer up and down the scale, more detail, less mush, sonic grunge, unwanted distortion and so on, that is, it 'sounded better'. I also refuse to disagree that if the same bunch of us were crowded into a phone booth listening to Tommy Emmanuel play for us over the phone, that I wouldn't dig it too. I might have said: "Gee Tommy thanks, that sounded great!" but what I would have meant would have been: "Gee Tommy thanks, that sounded like crap but man can you play!".

I think the point that default and I were making is that a good amp can overcome a crappy guitar better than a good guitar can overcome a crappy amp and, at least for less-than-stellar players, a good-sounding amp can add immeasurably to the playing experience, enjoyment, and inspire more play. Even if the content of that play isn't very far up the complexity scale, with a decent amp it can still sound good.
 

Guildmark

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capnjuan said:
I think the point that default and I were making is that a good amp can overcome a crappy guitar better than a good guitar can overcome a crappy amp and, at least for less-than-stellar players, a good-sounding amp can add immeasurably to the playing experience, enjoyment, and inspire more play. Even if the content of that play isn't very far up the complexity scale, with a decent amp it can still sound good.
I knew you could make sense of it for me, John!
Thanks!
 

mad dog

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This amp versus guitar thing makes for an interesting discussion. I think which one matters most to you depends on your taste, personality and stage of musical development. Everyone is so different. Guitars were the focus for me first. I played BF fenders for many years, knew little else and reserved my curiosity for guitars. Years later, one listen to an old Gibson GA40 changed everything. This other tone world -- amps, tubes and speakers -- opened up.

In terms of improving one's sound, getting things that work on stage, playing with amps has proven far more important to me. But they cannot be thought of a separate things. What good would my new (old) Ampeg be to me if I was playing some lifeless, no-tone guitar? It's all part of some progressive musical journey.
 

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Kap'n said:
The amp is at least as important as the guitar in the sound equation.

I'm reminded of the blind men describing the elephant. Of course, I'm the one who isn't blind and can see the whole thing :wink:

Why are you amplifying a guitar? If you are trying to get a particular sound than yes, the amp is a big component of that sound. But, if you are trying to make a sound, that is already satisfactory, louder then the best amp is the one that doesn't change the sound, thus making the guitar the most important component.

I also think the player and technique are also a big factor. At a certain skill level many people become disappointed because they don't sound like their hero even when they have the same guitar and amplifier. At the other skill extreme, we all have heard stories about players who sound like themselves regardless of the amp or guitar. And let's not forget all the times your interest in your own equipment has been rejuvenated when you hear someone else play and get a sound that you like and have not gotten yet yourself.
 

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fronobulax said:
I also think the player and technique are also a big factor.

Obviously. The largest factors.

However, the amp makes a huge difference, and just the speaker itself is a large part of that equation. A $200 guitar through a $2,000 amp sounds a LOT better than a $2,000 guitar through a $200 amp.

Would EVH/Jeff Beck/Jimmy Page etc. sound like themselves playing through a Polytone MiniBrute? Yes. However, they wouldn't have found their voice as an artist using that amp.
 

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I see amplifiers and speakers as musical instruments. The direct sound from a magnetic pickup is incomplete to me as something to actually use for an electric guitar sound. It only becomes complete in the air outside the speakers of my amp. I play in such a way as to take advantage of the amp characteristics, among other things. To me if you play electric guitar, you play the guitar and the amp. A guy that plays totally clean on an archtop acoustic through an added on pickup into a solid state amp, to me, is more of a hi fi amplified acoustic guitarist, than an electric guitarist as such. Charlie Christian on the other hand was an electric guitarist that happened to play a hollowbody guitar.

I too would much rather have a great amp and an OK guitar. The equipment I have accumulated reflects this because I have a good group of coveted vintage amps, and a smaller number of guitars that I like but which few collectors would care about, mostly oddball vintage stuff except for my Guilds, all of which are among the more basic and inexpensive models.

I can play almost any guitar through my old AC15, Watkins Dominator, Selmer Zodiac 30, or Ampeg Jet, and make it sound great, according to my criteria. I cannot do that with my best guitar, or an even better one, through a Peavey Bandit or a Hot Rod Deluxe. Your mileage may vary.
 

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Kap'n said:
However, the amp makes a huge difference, and just the speaker itself is a large part of that equation. A $200 guitar through a $2,000 amp sounds a LOT better than a $2,000 guitar through a $200 amp.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but that is your opinion. Given the difficulty of defining just what "sounds a lot better" means to two different people I suspect we will have to agree that we have different opinions.

My personal experience as a player and a part time professional sound tech many, many years ago is that an awful lot of people did not sound any better just because they switched to a "better" or more expensive amp and speakers (i.e. the ones provided by me). In rare cases they sounded worse since their mistakes were also reproduced with excessive clarity (or distortion or whatever characteristic the expensive amp was supposed to give you more of). I will also note the psychological effect that, all other things being as equal as possible and sound pressure levels away from the threshold of pain, people usually perceive the louder sound as being "better". And then, if you agree that amp/speaker/room combinations have "sweet spots" it makes things even harder to compare. I'm also enough of a cynic to understand that more expensive does not always mean better or better value and that you don't always get what you pay for.

I'll freely admit to the Geezer virtues(?) of selectively remembering only what supports my point, generalizing from a limited sample and hearing loss from playing loud before I discovered ear plugs. I just don't believe that buying more amp or paying for more amp is the most rational step to sounding better unless, of course, better means louder. Your mileage obviously varies :)
 

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teleharmonium said:
To me if you play electric guitar, you play the guitar and the amp.

OK, I'll back off a little (and double post). If we define an instrument called "electric guitar" and the definition of "good sound" is what the audience hears at a particular place in a specific room (thus making the guitar, amp and room all part of the sound) then I can agree that there are certain types of sounds that can only be produced by certain amps. If you're not getting that sound then replacing the amp would be the first thing to change.

That said, I have seen acts where the expensive guitar goes into a 15 watt tube amp that is being overdriven and the results are fed through a very clean high powered amp and speaker combo that are designed and operated to be as "clear" as possible :)
 

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Hi 'Frono; agree that a highly regarded amp won't make a crappy player a better player. It's my understanding that bass amps that produce wooly, lumpy, flaccid notes are not necessarily considered good bass amps from which I conclude, perhaps wrongly, that a bass player wants to produce dry, fast, punchy, musically-accurate notes. How well a bass player contributes musical counterpoint, rhythm, and drive are a function of how well he plays; what he 'sounds' like is a function of pickups and an amp.

I also think it's the nature of players to continually search for 'that sound' or 'their sound' and, in the world of electic guitars and basses, that search necessarily includes both instruments and amps.

"Jimmy found his own sweet sound and won that free guitar. We'd all get in the van and play..." Barricades of Heaven, Jackson Browne
 

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fronobulax said:
That said, I have seen acts where the expensive guitar goes into a 15 watt tube amp that is being overdriven and the results are fed through a very clean high powered amp and speaker combo that are designed and operated to be as "clear" as possible :)

Sure, I do that too sometimes, but I don't see that as a contradiction, because I see the amp as a musical instrument I am playing, my sound comes out of the amp; and the PA (or recording medium) as a tool to deliver my sound. I definitely want extra harmonics, compression, and other changes to happen to my sound in the amp, and I definitely want very little or none of that from a PA or a stereo playing my CD (although I know to expect a certain amount of change anyway because it's impossible to avoid it, and tasteful compression and EQ on my tracks and other tracks are desirable as well, which qualifies to some extent as having musical sensibility to the application of a PA system or a recording).

I'm not saying other approaches are wrong. If I wanted to do a solo acoustic guitar record of a live concert (which incidentally I am far from doing), I would want a real clear, transparent representation of the concert.

This conversation could go in any number of endless directions, but a couple of things that come to mind at this point are that perfection in sound reproduction is an impossible dream, all recordings and methods of amplifying constitute a different thing than the source material, and even the perception of a sound that has not been amplified or recorded is highly subjective in many ways. So I think it's healthy to adopt the attitude that you can't truly reproduce a sound without changing it, so you may as well just try to get to the result that you like the best, through whatever methods you choose. And the goal of getting a sound that appears to be true, accurate, and unmodified is perfectly legitimate. As long as you are aware of those methods, you can consider them part of your intended performance to get to that result, and therefore not an unwelcome modification of your work.
 

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fronobulax said:
Kap'n said:
However, the amp makes a huge difference, and just the speaker itself is a large part of that equation. A $200 guitar through a $2,000 amp sounds a LOT better than a $2,000 guitar through a $200 amp.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but that is your opinion. Given the difficulty of defining just what "sounds a lot better" means to two different people I suspect we will have to agree that we have different opinions.

Well, I guess I should have had an asterisk of *assuming competent guitarist. :lol:

While we all know of guitarists that can make a Teisco through an Alamo sound great, a good amp can convey all the expressiveness of the player and guitar....that's there, of course. A good amp can expose limitations and liabilities. OTOH, a great amp can inspire you to play better, in much the same way a great Guild or Martin acoustic can inspire more than a Brand X with identical setup. It's all about the sound coming out of the speakers, and the amp has much more to do with than than most people realize.
 

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Kap'n said:
While we all know of guitarists that can make a Teisco through an Alamo sound great, a good amp can convey all the expressiveness of the player and guitar....that's there, of course.

I gotta say that Teisco made some amazing pickups and pretty good guitars in some cases, and Alamo some great sounding amps.
 
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