All Buyers of Old Guild Acoustics

I just wanted to share this bit of information with all of you that have bought used acoustics. I know this won't be a startling revelation to most of you, but some of you may not have considered it and I'm pretty excited.

I never used to think about things like saddles, bridge pins and nuts, until I started hanging out with these guys here at LTG. Through discussion here, as you learn the function of various parts of an acoustic, I began to realize the importance of keeping those parts in good working order.

About a week ago, as I was changing strings on my D55, just for the heck of it, I popped out the saddle. I bought this guitar about 2 months ago and it had been through the hands of 2 owners. I was amazed to discover that the saddle was poorly shimmed. As most of you know, the saddle plays a major role in the transfer of vibration to the top. Anyway, DKLS (our resident administrator) is in the process of shaping a new bone saddle for the D55. I'm eager to hear the difference in my guitar.

Also a couple of months ago, I bought a '94 DV73. I decided to change the strings tonight and again, popped out the saddle. I planned to shave a bit off of the saddle as the action is factory high. As I grabbed the saddle with my fingers, I noticed that it has a rock in it caused by a high spot in the saddle groove. After shaving about 1/32" off the saddle bottom, I took very fine sandpaper to the top of the saddle to remove some very faint string grooves. Before replacing the saddle, I removed a burr in the saddle groove and made sure I got a uniform fit in the groove and ensured the high spot was removed. This was all very easy to accomplish by this novice guitarist. My gosh, what a difference it made to the DV73. It's easier to play and sounds very noticeably better, and already sounded like a dream.

I don't post this in order to brag on myself, I just wonder how many of us buy old Westerlys, or any used guitar, only to never have it reach it's potential, and never know the difference. It has just amazed me how little time this took and how much difference it has made. When you guys buy these old used guitars, check them out, sometimes they can be made to sound even better. I think many times the previous owner is oblivious to these issues or it is never conveyed to us as buyers.

West

Sound advice, West. I have been going thru the same processes with my instruments, one-by-one, prompted by discussins here over the past couple months. Replacing the poorly-fitted plastic sadlle of my '74 G37 with a Tusq saddle made a noticable improvement in its voice and projection. Just took my '74 D25 into the shop yesterday, to have nut adjusted (it was high) and its plastic saddle replaced with a Tusq saddle (blank from Don). I'm eager to hear what differnece it will make when I pick it up next week. Next up will be my '72 D35...

Used acoustics that I can't touch first are too scary for me to buy on e-Bay, especially anything over, say $300.

Reading posts on LTG has also shown me that many of the guys see flaws on the acoustics from the pix that I miss completely.

But almost every guitar I've ever bought has come with a setup that totally underwhelmed its potential. And it is fun as heck to make those adjustments and hear and feel the improvement.

So I can relate, West. Makes you feel like a good guitar shepherd.

West, it is amazing how simple changes can make these things bloom.

I have written a number of posts about the transformations to my D-40SB.

1. Like you when I pulled the saddle to replace it because it barely protruded from the bridge, I found the saddle rocked back and forth on the under saddle pick up. I was an original Martin Thinline with a center conductor that should have had a tapered hole. Removing the pickup and installing a TusQ saddle made a huge difference in sound.

2. The frets were completely shot and the refret with new fossilized ivory nut, though not simple made a quantum leap in output and tone.

3. It is now getting the bridge shaved and the saddle slot lowered to give me what will be my first ever guitar with a good action. Though many would say this change will alter the resale value by reducing it's orginality...I think of these guitars as friends that are ill, and I just gotta help them.

Having a friend that is a excellent luthier makes such things possible because you have to know without a doubt you can trust them. The first time he touched a guitar of mine was to scallop the braces of a D-28S....I have never distrusted him since then. :wink:

Well you know, there are just so many of us that buy old guitars. I had to get over a mental block myself, thinking this is all too technical. I'm sure there are others here who feel the same way and there's really not much to tuning these little babies up. I just think so many of us buy older guitars and accept them the way they are, when they can be so much more.

West

Sage advice from all of you guys and that's what I like most about this forum. However I'm a bit surprised to read that a DV-73 would have those conditions at all. I would expect, perhaps nievely, that a guitar of that model would have more attention paid to those details at the factory. What would the reatail price of one of those be? Even today's D-50s are not inexpensive, to me anyway, I want to buy a guitar, take it home and play it.

I guess an older guitar that has some history I don't know about needs to have a pro look it over and maybe set it up, but I don't think I would attempt this.

Maybe one day.

Way to go West.

G

P,

I can only imagine that you would need a luthier that you trust. Last night, just before you sent the F50/D55 articles, I read the last link that you sent me a while back. I had read about saddles and bridges, but last night I read about neck resets in it's entirety. My gosh, I wouldn't let anybody do that to one of my babies. I'd just have to try top play with some very high action I guess. Talk about trusting your luthier, man if you didn't know what you were doing, you could demolish a flattop in no time.

Graham,

I think the action on many Guild acoustic guitars was set fairly high by the factory. Some folks must like it that way, but most of all, it does give the owner room for adjustment in the action. I think a higher action is supposed to give more volume, but if it does, the difference has always been fairly minor to me. I've noticed no change in projection on the DV73, other than the fact it might actually be louder. I would attribute that to better contact between the saddle and the bridge. I lowered the action by a very small amount. I think I removed about 1/16" at the saddle and that translated to about 1/32" at the 12th. Much easier to manipulate the fretboard, but nowhere near low enough to cause any buzz. The difference in tone is dramatic, but again, I attribute that mostly to getting the rock out of the saddle and possibly sanding some faint string grooves out of the saddle top had some bearing.

BTW Graham, when I finished cleaning the saddle groove and sanding the saddle, at the recommendation of Mr. P, Don and several others, I replaced my strings with a set of John Pearse 80/20 lights. They may be the best finger picking strings I've played. Been playing them a few months now, and I love 'em.

West

West R Lee said:

P,

First West, this is a great new string you've started.

I think the action on many Guild acoustic guitars was set fairly high by the factory. Some folks must like it that way, but most of all, it does give the owner room for adjustment in the action. I think a higher action is supposed to give more volume, but if it does, the difference has always been fairly minor to me. West

Click to expand...

I remember in the late '60's that one of the big gripes about Guilds vs. Martins was that the action was always higher. That was when the whole guitar cost what a trip to the luthier can cost these days.

My standard operating procedure when buying any used guitar is to re-string it, play it for a while, and even if I think it is o.k. I take it to the luthier after about a week to check the setup. No matter how good I think it was when I got it, I'm always surprised when it comes back better than ever. Fixing a lot of the little defects mentioned above, and while you're noticing things now like a little rock in the bridge, those items could well have been within acceptable specs when they left the factory (saddle was right length, action was right height, no call no foul). Case in point, I just took my 12 string in for another setup -- something just wasn't right, hi notes were tinny, not bell-like as they should be. Dave the luthier determined the saddle hadn't been adjusted properly, fixed it and problem solved. And while he was at it, he discovered the factory installed fishman had been installed backwards, which the first setup guy never noticed!

West R Lee said:

BTW Graham, when I finished cleaning the saddle groove and sanding the saddle, at the recommendation of Mr. P, Don and several others, I replaced my strings with a set of John Pearse 80/20 lights. They may be the best finger picking strings I've played. Been playing them a few months now, and I love 'em.

West

Click to expand...

I have just come across Guild L350 strings, which I think are great, even on my old Cort. I'm mostly a strummer at the moment, but I think I have given up on the pick altogether.

california91207 said:

I take it to the luthier after about a week to check the setup.

Click to expand...

I'm looking to find a good guitar tech that I can talk to. There is one here in the city, Mike Spicer, that has a good reputation. How do you go about making a connection with these guys?

G

On strings -- I'm with West, John Pearse Phosphor Bronze Lights.

Regarding a luthier, ask for referrals. Postings on guitar message boards usually work pretty well.

And don't overlook the Bridge Pins.

It's essential that they have the correct taper, or you ain't going to get optimum sound transmission. One size very definitely does NOT fit all !
Tusq pins (available from Don), are THOROUGHLY recommended.

And I'll say it again; I'll be damned if I can see how ebony pins can brighten a guitar, or enhance projection.

Coaster,

Let me ask a dumb question.....enlighten me....are ebony bridge pins made of ebony wood? I suppose I've never seen any up close and personal, all I know is that they are black.

West

I believe so West.
At least, I've always assumed they are !

coastie99 said:

Tusq pins (available from Don), are THOROUGHLY recommended.

Click to expand...

So what kind of a difference is there with Tusq?

I was thinking of selling this Cort guitar of mine when the GAD arrives, but the more I read here I may take this thing into The Peghead and let them do some work with it. Or maybe I'll tackle some of this myself just for the fun of it.

What started me down the new guitar road was that this guitar just doesn't have any projection for me anymore. It's a decent guitar, solid spruce top, mahogany back and sides, but I wonder now if a couple of bucks in the hands of a good tech and they might be able to coax something out of it.

I don't think though that there is any turning back from the Guilds. I still do not have one in my possesion but just spending some time here and reading what you guys have to say and the way you say it, leaves me longing to hunt them down and play them.

When I first got into this, which has only been about 10 years, I was all about the Gibson J-45, I don't really know why, but that's what I wanted. And I have played a couple of them and to me they sound very good. Mind you I don't have a lot to put up against them to compare. That led me to the Epi Masterbilt which I was determined to get, but as fate would have it, the one I played did nothing for me and right beside it was a GAD which I fell in love with as soon as I played it.

And of course now I have the strap and I ordered the book so I guess I'm all in.

G :lol:

I think that last line said it for ya Graham, if you've got the strap and the book, you need to get the flattop!

What are you playing now?

West

West R Lee said:

What are you playing now?

West

Click to expand...

I have a '95 Cort. It's been OK, but I still waiting for the GAD to get here.

I also have a Seagull S12 that I have up on Ebay at the moment. I just don't give it any play time anymore. I want to focus on the 6 and I don't think it should just sit there. It's a very decent guitar for the money.

G

Graham,

I sent you a PM.

West

Yo, West and Coastie, my F-44 came with ebony pins. Real ebony wood, not just black plastic. But I believe I was told they were put on by the music store luthier (part of their pitch was that he personally setup all their new Guilds back then, 1987), not by the Guild factory.

I've babied them thru the years and they still work fine. How much difference they make in the sound? Well I don't know as I've never experimented with other pins on the guitar.

Coastie, how's your taper, man? Indeed the fit is everything. I been wondering where you've been. I was afraid the Aussie commandos had pulled your plug for all the lip you give them.

Zilla,

I'm no acoustic engineer, but if ebony pins are indeed made of ebony wood, I would think just about anything would sound better, no offense. Like I said, I'm no acoustic engineer, but I do sometimes work with oscilloscopes, which read frequency of vibration and how it is transmitted through various substances (we do it to diagnose equipment, bearings, shafts, cracks, cylinders, valves, etc.). What I do know is that wood doesn't transmit vibration nearly as well as hard substances, such as bone. Tusq is a material that from what I understand, is an injection molded polymer (plastic), that is supposed to be as hard as bone, give or take, but more consistent in it's makeup throughout the piece. I would think either would transmit vibration better than ebony.

West

When I purchased my D55, the former owner had already installed ebony pins. I compared the sound to a D55 with the white plastic factory pins in a local music store and the only way I can describe the difference between the two is to use the word mellow. To my ear, bass,mid and trible is more mellow on my D55.
Dale