Would you ever consider buying a "Modified Guild?"

PittPastor

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I saw this on eBay recently. It is a modified Guild D-40. Modified by "Master Luthier Denny Zager" with his "EZ-Play" system. I've never heard of him before, but I haven't heard of a lot of people...

Modified Guild D40 $1989

He actually seems to have a few Guilds he has modified.

His EZ-Play modification is described here:

EZ Play System

Looks like he replaces the fretboard entirely, which concerns me a little.

Here's the thing, I am still recovering from the thumb pain I started getting from a few (stupid) experiments about a month ago. It is better, but sometimes when I move from chord to chord (especially from barre to barre) I get a twinge and the pain starts back again. If I rest it immediately, it seems to get better faster, so I don't think I am totally re-injuring it. But, it definitively has me thinking about things I have never thought of before like: "How long can I play?"

IDK, is it worth it to get a guitar that seems to be designed for guys my age (I think they are endorsed by the American Arthritis Foundation?)

I'm not sold on the custom built: "These sound as good as any Martin, Gibson or Taylor out there -- we promise!" But a modified Guild... Hmmm... The sound is in the body, not the neck. I'd still be getting that familiar Guild Sound. Just an easier fretting instrument? Sounds pretty good. But I wouldn't want to get something that sounded nothing like a Guild and felt nothing like a guitar, either. So... Anyone ever play one of these?

Is it just stupid to invest in a modified Guild? Thoughts?
 

AcornHouse

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Zager is a fraud. He's trying to sell his magic system, which is basically a setup. I would never encourage that type of snake oil.
 

dreadnut

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My DV-52 was customized with fret markers when I bought it.
A3f6vm4.jpg



I'm not sold on the "Zagerized" guitars though either.
 

poser

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Over at the Acoustic Guitar Forum the posters have mostly venom for Zagerized guitars.
 

PittPastor

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Over at the Acoustic Guitar Forum the posters have mostly venom for Zagerized guitars.

I noticed that. Seems like most are offended at the idea of it, without really saying they had tried it and they hated it. But maybe I just didn't find that thread yet.

Zager is a fraud. He's trying to sell his magic system, which is basically a setup. I would never encourage that type of snake oil.

Yeah, I was on his web page trying to figure out what makes it special. For one thing, my D40C has really low action -- due to the fact that is in the "needs a neck reset" zone and to compensate, the saddle has been filed really low. It's hard for me to imagine an acoustic guitar with lower action than what I have right now.

He makes mention of the fact that he can get an easier fretting instrument because: "Denny achieves this using a lighter bracing system which actually flexes in the face as you press each string." I'm trying to understand how a bracing system changes string tension at all. So, that sort of puzzles me, I'll admit.

He says he increases the string spacing without increasing the neck width. And, again, I was wondering. That can make a difference. I discovered on my quest for a 1 3/4" neck that not all were made equal. Some widened the neck without increasing the string spacing. So, some of that I can understand. But, one thing I sometimes have to watch these days is deadining the high E with the fleshy part of my palm. (Skin's not as tight there as it used to be!) So, if you aren't increasing neck size at all, but you increase string spacing, I have to think that ends up bringing the E's closer to the neck edge... right? I can see that would create all kinds of trouble for my fleshy palm.

But I'm willing to try one, I guess, to see.

I'm getting the feeling that springing for a more expensive Guild to get a feature set that not everyone likes is probably not the way to go tho.

Still interested if anyone else has tried a Zagerrized guitar and liked it...?
 

PittPastor

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That sounds like an interesting story.

I keep saying I'm going to start a thread on it. What's held me up is I want to do some pictures and maybe video showing how I played, and how I tried to switch to, and why I think it messed up my hand. Problem is, with the thumb still tweaked, I don't want to make the video yet.

Oh, what the heck... I'll derail my own thread. This one is probably played out anyway... I know I'm not buying a Zag-Guild.

In a nutshell, I went back to the drawing board on my playing style (that was developed over 30 some years of "teach myself guitar"). I changed my hand position -- at the same time I started trying different guitar neck profiles. Bad idea, and I should have known better (you never change two variables at the same time!)

The way I was understanding the "correct" way of playing the guitar meant dropping my thumb to halfway down the neck. "Never have the thumb showing above the neck." Keep a "C" shape in the hand, so you can "pinch" the guitar neck between the thumb and fingers to get a better angle and pressure for those pesky barre chords and such.

What ended up happening was that I put too much pressure on the first knuckle joint of my thumb (not at once. But over a few days of playing the new modified style.) Now it sort of feels swollen and like the knuckle is halfway between a pop. (Anyone who cracks their knuckles knows what I mean... like it should pop, but didn't, and now it just hurts. -- I don't pop or crack my thumb knuckle... its just the best way I can describe the feeling.) I can actually feel the tendon pop a little sometimes on some lateral movements. After a week of rest, it feels better, but last night I was playing "Corey's Coming" and on the move from the B min to the F# min (Barre to Barre) I felt that twinge and the thumb was on fire again. I don't think it is fully re-injured. But I think it's going to take longer to heal than I originally thought. It's the lateral movement that hurts now. Even an F causes a bit of pain.
 

chazmo

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Pitt, I realize you've set your mind against the Zager-ized Guild, but I wanted to temper my comment from earlier before we leave the subject entirely...

Based on your comments in another thread, you're not really looking to collect guitars here; you want the guitar that's right for you. So, snake oil or not, the only thing that matters here is whether YOU like the guitar and whether it's right for you.

If you want to trade guitars for a while to get to the point where you find your perfect instrument -- which is a super fun way to do this -- you have to be sure you understand what you're buying so you can sell it in the near-term without losing your shirt. This Zager thing will not be in the same market as an original-condition instrument.

Hope that helps.
 

bobouz

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I played a Zager guitar once. It was a small-bodied Pacific Rim instrument & quite easy to play.

But in reality, it's just a matter of having a good setup done - so beware of the hype & upcharge.
 
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I keep saying I'm going to start a thread on it. What's held me up is I want to do some pictures and maybe video showing how I played, and how I tried to switch to, and why I think it messed up my hand. Problem is, with the thumb still tweaked, I don't want to make the video yet.

Oh, what the heck... I'll derail my own thread. This one is probably played out anyway... I know I'm not buying a Zag-Guild.

In a nutshell, I went back to the drawing board on my playing style (that was developed over 30 some years of "teach myself guitar"). I changed my hand position -- at the same time I started trying different guitar neck profiles. Bad idea, and I should have known better (you never change two variables at the same time!)

The way I was understanding the "correct" way of playing the guitar meant dropping my thumb to halfway down the neck. "Never have the thumb showing above the neck." Keep a "C" shape in the hand, so you can "pinch" the guitar neck between the thumb and fingers to get a better angle and pressure for those pesky barre chords and such.

What ended up happening was that I put too much pressure on the first knuckle joint of my thumb (not at once. But over a few days of playing the new modified style.) Now it sort of feels swollen and like the knuckle is halfway between a pop. (Anyone who cracks their knuckles knows what I mean... like it should pop, but didn't, and now it just hurts. -- I don't pop or crack my thumb knuckle... its just the best way I can describe the feeling.) I can actually feel the tendon pop a little sometimes on some lateral movements. After a week of rest, it feels better, but last night I was playing "Corey's Coming" and on the move from the B min to the F# min (Barre to Barre) I felt that twinge and the thumb was on fire again. I don't think it is fully re-injured. But I think it's going to take longer to heal than I originally thought. It's the lateral movement that hurts now. Even an F causes a bit of pain.

Thanks for the explanation, but I think our idea (yours vs. mine) of a stupid experiment is quite different. :barbershop_quartet_
 

PittPastor

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If you want to trade guitars for a while to get to the point where you find your perfect instrument -- which is a super fun way to do this -- you have to be sure you understand what you're buying so you can sell it in the near-term without losing your shirt. This Zager thing will not be in the same market as an original-condition instrument.

I appreciate that Chazmo. They do have one at GC. I can order it in, and try it risk free. The web page says they are 100% risk free as well -- meaning if you don't like it they pay for the shipping both ways PLUS refund your money -- but I know how easy GC is to work with. I can see me fighting over fees and such with a company I don't know. Plus, I get 24 months interest free at GC.

I guess some of this depends on how my hand does. If it comes around, I won't bother. But, if it keeps lingering, I might try it, just to see if it actually does fret easier. But I won't do the ZagGuild. I'd go for a full on Zag Guitar, I think. It's actually cheaper that way and less risk as well.
 

Nuuska

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Hello

That Zager-thing looks dubious. He makes big issue of 1/32-inch - less than 1mm - spacing of strings. On my sig you see I play F-50R and F-512 - those two already have different spacing - add to that the little Gibson LG2-3/4 so we have string spacing at the nut varying from roughly 1+11/32 to 1+13/32 to 1+16/32 - on 512 I measure middle of string-pair. Then I have a spanish nylon string with not flat, but concave fingerboard and quite wide spacing. No problems switching between any two any time between songs.

That 1/32 extra inch he´s selling will be 1/160 inch per space between any two strings - WOW - HURRAA - end of whatever ...

That action thing, where 10 first frets are relatively lower than the rest means the fingerboard is bent towards guitar top - starting round 10th - makes somewhat sense - but then I am not that kind of player - so I´ll leave judgment of that to others.

The thinning of braces - let´s hear somebody who builds or repairs acoustic guitars. Sure it is going to change things - but is it going to stay stable?

Guaranteed - resale value may go up or down depending to whom you sell the guitar later on. I would play safe and only do minor modifications - like adding pickups under saddle - changing better tuners and stuff like that.

I would definitely not object, if somebody were offering a technically and sonically healthy Guild, that had some nice "aftermarket" inlays on fingerboard.
 

crank

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Go back to putting your thumb on top of the neck.
 

Rich Cohen

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I keep saying I'm going to start a thread on it. What's held me up is I want to do some pictures and maybe video showing how I played, and how I tried to switch to, and why I think it messed up my hand. Problem is, with the thumb still tweaked, I don't want to make the video yet.

Oh, what the heck... I'll derail my own thread. This one is probably played out anyway... I know I'm not buying a Zag-Guild.

In a nutshell, I went back to the drawing board on my playing style (that was developed over 30 some years of "teach myself guitar"). I changed my hand position -- at the same time I started trying different guitar neck profiles. Bad idea, and I should have known better (you never change two variables at the same time!)

The way I was understanding the "correct" way of playing the guitar meant dropping my thumb to halfway down the neck. "Never have the thumb showing above the neck." Keep a "C" shape in the hand, so you can "pinch" the guitar neck between the thumb and fingers to get a better angle and pressure for those pesky barre chords and such.

What ended up happening was that I put too much pressure on the first knuckle joint of my thumb (not at once. But over a few days of playing the new modified style.) Now it sort of feels swollen and like the knuckle is halfway between a pop. (Anyone who cracks their knuckles knows what I mean... like it should pop, but didn't, and now it just hurts. -- I don't pop or crack my thumb knuckle... its just the best way I can describe the feeling.) I can actually feel the tendon pop a little sometimes on some lateral movements. After a week of rest, it feels better, but last night I was playing "Corey's Coming" and on the move from the B min to the F# min (Barre to Barre) I felt that twinge and the thumb was on fire again. I don't think it is fully re-injured. But I think it's going to take longer to heal than I originally thought. It's the lateral movement that hurts now. Even an F causes a bit of pain.

I developed the same problem about six months ago, and had exactly the same experiences you are having. Rest is the only solution. But, in the meantime you can try a Futuro thumb brace, which is basically made for folks who have hand problems from keyboarding too much. I found that even when the thumb tendon was acting up (producing the very same pain you're describing), I'd put on the Futuro thumb brace and it pretty much prevented the tendon from snapping and hurting. You'll find the brace in your friendly pharmacy.

Good luck.
Rich

P.S. I owned a Zager made dred a couple of years back, one of their low end models and sold it. After that, I discovered Guild, and never looked elsewhere. BTW, my Gibson J-185 will be leaving the herd shortly.
 
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GardMan

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From what I have heard, "Zagerizing" is just a set up... with perhaps some fret work, plus a switch to extra light strings.. No real modifications to the fretboard itself or bracing.

What's odd about this particular guitar is that it's NOT new... from what I can see, it is a '60s era D-40, '69 or earlier. This is based on the "cloud" style bridge with thru saddle and the oval (Hoboken or Westerly). All the "Zagerized" guitars I have seen (for a while there were so many on eBay that I used filters to exclude them from my searches) were new... and mostly Pac Rim guitars, including an occasional Guild GAD series. Makes me wonder if this seller is blowing smoke, and using the "Zager" moniker as an "excuse" for his low saddle.

50+ years ago, my guitar teacher Andy always said that the pad of my thumb should be centered on the back of the neck, with fingers properly arched over the strings. He had a worksheet that he filled out each lesson as I played... with check boxes for things I did right or wrong... That was one of the boxes. But, these days, I play with my thumb wrapped to fret the 6th string. Every once in a while, while playing a bass run on the 6th with my thumb, I think of what Andy would say... and then I go on playing the way I feel comfortable playing.
 

PittPastor

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I developed the same problem about six months ago, and had exactly the same experiences you are having. Rest is the only solution. But, in the meantime you can try a Futuro thumb brace, which is basically made for folks who have hand problems from keyboarding too much. I found that even when the thumb tendon was acting up (producing the very same pain you're describing), I'd put on the Futuro thumb brace and it pretty much prevented the tendon from snapping and hurting. You'll find the brace in your friendly pharmacy.

Thanks Rich -- two questions: 1) Did you injure your thumb by playing guitar? Or something else? 2) How long did you rest it?
 
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