NS Starfire II String thru ??

Llewellen

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There is a dearth of medium scale strings available; vastly more selection in long scale.

Since this guitar has a centre block, what do we think of the notion of having a luthier drill it and install ferrules so that it is string thru. The current length ball end to first tuning peg is 36 inches. String thru would add approx. 1.5-1.75 inches which would make it able to accept long scale strings typically around 37 inches winding length.

Suggestions? Bronx cheer?
 

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It's not vintage, so it doesn't matter, but that's a lot of work for why?
 

Llewellen

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It's not vintage, so it doesn't matter, but that's a lot of work for why?

As I said, string selection. There are lots of strings that I would like to try out, and perhaps settle on full time, but the vast majority of them are only available in long scale or else the gauges available in medium scale are not suitable (e.g. Rotosound medium scale are very light gauge). Also, there's more opportunity to make up custom gauge sets with long scale.
 
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fronobulax

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Bronx cheer from here, but it is your bass so I'll gladly watch over your shoulder if you do it.

That said, I've found some strings labelled "short scale" that fit so there may be more choices out there.
 

Nuuska

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Hello

I recall that sometimes I made string extension by inserting a long nut - the kind you use for joining two screws - that moved the ball end further back so the tuners got the right part.

Looks like s#%& but works. A piece of metal tube/pipe would be equally good.
 

Llewellen

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Hello

I recall that sometimes I made string extension by inserting a long nut - the kind you use for joining two screws - that moved the ball end further back so the tuners got the right part.

Looks like s#%& but works. A piece of metal tube/pipe would be equally good.

Yes, I thought of that approach but to get to long scale terrirtory would require about 1 inch of rearward extension which, as you said, would look like crap.

I suppose another way would be to attach a stop tailpiece near the butt of the guitar. A black one like this one from Hipshot wouldn't look too bad:

http://https://hipshotproducts.com/collections/bass-bridges/products/4-string-d-style-bass-bridge

And then a third approach would be to extend the ball achoring point forward (toward the saddles) by inserting an eye bolt through the anchoring hole in the back of the bridge and running the string through the eye (with a small washer if necessary). That could make more short scales useable. E.g. GHS Balanced Nickels are 32.75 inch wind so only a 0.5 extension would allow them to work on this guitar.
 
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Minnesota Flats

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If the plan is to run the strings through the stock , "Harp" bridge string holes past where the balls usually end up, I'd be very careful about how far behind the bridge the holes are drilled/located and what sort of break angle this creates as the strings pass through the bridge plate. If the holes are too close and the angle too sharp, I would worry that the strings could be weakened where they exit/contact the bridge plate. making them more susceptible to breakage.

If I was going to have somebody do it for me, I'd make sure they had a drill press, a razor-sharp set of Forstner bits and a solid track record of consistent, meticulous, quality craftsmanship (especially if this is a vintage, MIA bass). You might not be too happy with the result if some yahoo goes at it with a hand drill.

Because the top and back of a Starfire are curved, getting these holes spaced perfectly would probably require construction of a jig of some sort to hold the bass. Drilling string-through holes in something like a Fender Mustang is much simpler since the body is a flat-sided slab with parallel top and bottom planes.

Personally, the potential benefit of this wouldn't be worth the trouble of doing it (or getting it done) right, but then, I'm happy with medium-scale Chromes, so don't feel an urgent need to expand my string options.
 

Llewellen

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@Minnesota Flats: Thanks for the helpful comments and advice.

Re: string angle: yes, I agree that a straight drop (90 degree angle) at the end of the baseplate would risk weakening the string and breakage. Subject to what the luthier has to say on the subject, I was thinking of positioning the holes about 0.5 to 0.75 inch back of the baseplate.

I have used this luthier in the past and have also seen some of his other work. It's beautiful, meticulous stuff. If he thinks the difficulty of drilling the holes, with arched top and back, would make it impossible to do a perfect job, he just won't take the job on at all. As it is, I will probably have to wait in line for a few weeks before getting an appointment for him even to look at the guitar and consider the job. I'm also going to have him fabricate and install a thumbrest between the two pickups.

One of the great joys of the music world is that we each have our own take on things. For me the potential benefit of access to a much larger selection of string types and resulting tonal tinkering makes this sort of thing worth the trouble (and expense) BUT only if the job can be done meticulously. I will not be bringing out my home handyman drill kit :)

What are your thoughts about the Hipshot stop tailpiece I referred to in an earlier post as a possible alternative?
 

Minnesota Flats

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"What are your thoughts about the Hipshot stop tailpiece I referred to in an earlier post as a possible alternative? "

Don't feel qualified to comment on the suitability of the Hipshot, having never used one.
 

Nuuska

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One more

How about this reversible modification?

Have someone with metal working skills make you a short harp tailpiece that attaches with strap button screw. Insert strings first through that, then through original bridge - and voila´. . .

Plus you´d have the benefit of being able to use long- and shortscale strings mixed, if things would evolve to such extremes.

Here are two crappy sketches of the idea - I am not any good with pen . . .





fullsizeoutput_2b1.jpeg



fullsizeoutput_2b2.jpeg
 

Llewellen

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@Nuuska: I like your idea and had already been looking at harp tailpieces - they're all too long. I live in a small community so I'm not so sure I can find someone to fabricate a shorter one like you have drawn and described. Would the single strap button screw be sufficient to hold it in place against the tension of the strings?

In any case, after reading the excellent feedback here and giving it some more thought, I'm still very much into doing something that will allow me to use long scale strings but I think that a tailpiece is a better idea, either the one you describe or the Hipshot one I linked to earlier. It would be less invasive (your idea would be almost totally reversible) and it would provide an almost straight pull on the strings. Also much less expense in terms of luthier time and fees (at least for the Hipshot one).

Drilling the body to provide string thru holes seems elegant from an appearance perspective (to me at least) but has a number of problems: (a) it is the most invasive approach; (b) even with offsetting the ferrules a bit behind the bridge plate there will still be some comparatively sharper string bends (certainly not as desirable as a straight pull); (c) because the top and bottom of the guitar are arched, as Minnesota Flats noted it will be well nigh impossible to drill straight holes and get the ferrules seated completely flat - i.e. to some extent an unfinished look; (d) limited to about 1.5 to 1.75 inches of additional length; and (e) considerably more expensive for the luthier's fees.

The luthier is away on vacation until Sep 8 so I do have a few days to mull this over before contacting him to discuss it and make an appointment.

Any further thoughts/suggestions would be much welcomed.
 

Nuuska

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@Nuuska: I like your idea and had already been looking at harp tailpieces - they're all too long. I live in a small community so I'm not so sure I can find someone to fabricate a shorter one like you have drawn and described. Would the single strap button screw be sufficient to hold it in place against the tension of the strings?.


Hello

As with any harp tailpiece or Bigsby - the tension is against the body of the guitar - the screw only has to resist small sideways force, that is trying to shift the tailpiece upwards. The angle should be such, that the lowest edge touches the body first.
 

fronobulax

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Hipshot link above was not a direct click.

https://hipshotproducts.com/collections/bass-bridges/products/4-string-d-style-bass-bridge

I like Nuuska's idea.

I note that so long as the original saddle location is kept the result will still be a 30.5" scale bass that can be intonated. I spent too much time wondering if the longer string changed the scale length and then remembered that neither the nut nor the bridge saddle locations were moving so, "Never Mind".
 

lungimsam

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No need for any of this to be done.
I use longscale Chromes (.105) and LaBellas flats (.110) with no probs. Silk wraps on E/G posts, not on A/D. I’ve had no problems during the last three years.
 

Minnesota Flats

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I'd seen other Hipshot bridges before but never that model. I like it. Thanks for the fix, Frono.
 

Llewellen

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Thanks for fixing that link to the Hipshot D style bridge and tailpiece. It's a nice tailpiece (spendy though) but it has one drawback in this application: string spacing of 18mm, whereas the ball end string spacing on the backend of the bridge is 15mm.

I have abandoned the idea of drilling for string thru but I'm still sold on the idea of using long scale strings. We don't need to get into a debate about this on this thread but, although the speaking length of the strings from bridge saddle to nut will remain the same, my mind thinks it can feel and hear a slight difference with a longer winding length in play between ball end and nut. I think the physics would say that a longer string would have to be more taught in order to reach the same pitch. Thus the E would be a little firmer. But we don't need to resolve that here. In any case, my main motivation for this is to gain access to the much greater array of strings available in long scale.

What I think I have settled on is this. I already have a piece of katalox that I bought to have the luthier fabricate some new saddles to replace the rosewood and also to fabricate a thumb rest. There's more wood in this piece than will be needed for the saddles and thumb rest, so the luthier could easily fabricate a tailpiece and get the string spacing correct at 15mm (or perhaps a little less to align with the very slight angle from the ball end anchor to the saddles).

Katalox is denser than Macassar ebony (certainly denser than rosewood) so it would certainly be strong enough for the application and aesthetically it will go well with the saddles, thumbrest and fretboard.

https://www.wood-database.com/katalox/

Any final thoughts before I talk to the luthier next week and take the plunge?
 
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Llewellen

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No need for any of this to be done.
I use longscale Chromes (.105) and LaBellas flats (.110) with no probs. Silk wraps on E/G posts, not on A/D. I’ve had no problems during the last three years.

But the tailpiece will allow me to mix and match long and medium scale strings easily so as to get more balanced tension. For example D'Addario EXL 170 (long) E and A anchored at the tailpiece and D'Addario EXL 170M (medium) D and G anchored at the bridge base plate.
 

Llewellen

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Appointment booked with the luthier to discuss all this on Tues Sep 18-18. He may tell me some good reasons why my idea won't work well. At the very least I'm going to have him fabricate bridge saddles and a thumb rest from the piece of katalox that I acquired. I'll report back next week.

http://www.rufusguitars.com/
 

Llewellen

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Your collective wisdom was, in fact, wise. I stand better informed and somewhat chastened :)

The luthier listened to me politely and then said that he wouldn't dream of drilling the holes necessary for a tailpiece that I described in such a beautiful instrument. If the main goal is to gain access to the much larger selection of long scale strings, he said that he has been using them on short and medium scale basses for decades without a problem, especially with larger diameter tuning pegs like the Guild has. He showed me how he squashes the end to be cut before crimping and that was that.

If I am adamant about wanting to use long scale strings, he said he could fabricate a sort of harp style tailpiece out of brass, like Nuuska suggested and like you often see on archtop guitars, that fastens on the butt of the guitar only with the strap button and then right angles over the body without touching it. If desired that could have a wooden decorative piece over it, like you see on Eastman or Peerless jazz guitar tailpieces. Mucho dinero so must be left for another day, if ever at all.

He is going to fabricate and install bridge saddles and a thumbrest out the piece of katalox that I supplied. The thumbrest will have a small piece of thin clear plastic sheet protruding from under it to prevent my thumbnail from gouging the finish when my thumb is on the rest.

He quickly checked the frets and pronounced that a full dressing appeared not to be necessary but will check that again when he lowers the action and installs the new strings (D'Addario EXL 170).

I don't know what you're accustomed to paying for luthier services where you live but Rufus charges $80CAD per hour plus parts plus sales taxes.

Thanks for all the input, suggestions and advice; very much appreciated.
 
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