Me and Guild not off to a good start!!

adorshki

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Having been the instigator of some stern chastising myself recently, I just want to applaud all of you guys for not resorting to rude insults and keepin' it pretty darn civil and "on the rails" and especially you GJM for even retracting what you realized may have been an unfair observation.
Another possibilty regarding the "availability" issue may simply be due to the timing of when the information was obtained, when it was relayed to the customer, and how long it took the order to actually be placed by the dealer.
30 guitars, 14 spoken for, how long does it take for the other 16 to be ordered? I could see that happening in a couple of days.
@Kbob: If you didn't realize it, Guild's entire production has been estimated at around 5000 units per year by one of our members with reasonable info to base that estimate on (Fender still aint talkin'). So it's unfair to try to compare Martin and Guild based on availability. You could turn that around and say Martin's making so many guitars they can't possibly pay as much attention to each individual guitar as Guild does, and in fact, that was one element in my decison to go with Guild w-a-a-y back in '96.
Whatever you decide to do, at least know we're trying to give you all the info you should know to make the best decision, and the best info about Guild is found right here.
 

adorshki

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But anyway, at least I always thought that if somebody talks about a "solid spruce top" it is always "solid Sitka Spruce". Otherwise it is usually clearly specificed differently, like Western Red Spruce, Adirondack spruce, Engelmann spruce, Alpine Italian spruce,...
Ralf
Just by way of second opinion, yes, that's how I always understood it as well, and in fact I was a little mystifed when the subject of "red spruce" first popped up in regards to Tacoma-builts.
Never saw a reference to anything but "spruce" of various grades in any Guild literature prior to that. But I think you've seen even more Guild literature than I have, I haven't seen all that much.
 

idealassets

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Hi Craig, the 2013 Guild pricelist shows the D-55 with "Sitka Spruce", so that should be the answer. But anyway, at least I always thought that if somebody talks about a "solid spruce top" it is always "solid Sitka Spruce". Otherwise it is usually clearly specificed differently, like Western Red Spruce, Adirondack spruce, Engelmann spruce, Alpine Italian spruce,...
But I agree that Guild should better define it on all their media to avoid questions!

By the way, I assume kbob2 means "Scottsdale" when he said "Phoenix", after all they are very close cities next to each other. (Just trying to keep peace here...)
But I am not sure how anybody in customer service can promise an endcustomer something, because all Guild guitars need to be purchased via authorized Guild dealers only! So kbob2 should not be angry about Guild but about whatever dealer he used! Because it is the dealers fault in that case...So kbob2, don't be angry about Guild here, complain at your dealer please...

Ralf
The dealer is Sweetwater (from another thread)
 

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I don't get what the fixation is with the top. I always assumed that the guitar manufacturers knew what they were doing. If you are capable of judging a guitar on it's own merits, please do so. If you can't, pay to have one built.<shrug>
 

SFIV1967

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Spec sheet on D-55says AAA SPRUCE!!!!!!!!! Read it...
kbob2: Please don't shout at us.
We all tried to help you. I have a feeling you have not even bothered to read all our comments/advise.
(Also in your other thread that you had opened! http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?178127-D-55-purchase-and-not-delivered )
Yes, we have all seen what the webpage shows and we commented on it. No need for your repeated messages. We can read.
We told you it is Sitka Spruce, we even told you that Sitka Spruce in AAA is quite expensive and rare, and can be MORE expensive than Adi top wood.
We have members here that are Guild employees, so they know what they talk about. You asked and we tried to help you.
We showed you that the Guild official price list (!) shows "Sitka Spruce" (!), so what are you shouting here?

You asked: "I ask why would they put a more expensive top on a less expensive guitar and the D-55 had a less expensive top when adi is more in demand but expensive."
We told you that you don't take into consideration that a AAA Sitka Spruce top can be quite more expensive (!) compared to a Adirondack top! It's plain wrong to say Adirondack is more expensive than Sitka Spruce without looking at the grading of it! We explained that to you.

Fine, you cancelled your order. You should be angry about your dealer who promised you delivery and did not deliver. It's not Guild's fault that there is high demand in the market for Guilds models. It's a nice problem to have for Guild. Hope you are more lucky in future with them.
And yes, it is your money and you can spend it on whatever you like.
Have a nice day and enjoy your Martin guitars in the meantime. Life is too short to get excited about such small issues...
Ralf
 
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chazmo

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Good luck, kbob!

If you get a chance, definitely try one before giving up entirely. Definitely try a Guild jumbo at some point too... You might get hooked. :)
 

charliea

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First of all I am not upset with guild! I also am not upset with sweetwater... I am upset being told it would be at sweetwater the 19th.. Now its five weeks later... Big difference. Also I talked to two kind gentlemen high ranking confirming they had many in stock. Then I placed my order... Then things changed. Also there was no deception on the REDspruce vs AAA. AS I said in my post I overlooked it. It said AAA SPRUCE and I assumed it was adi..but legit. I ask why would they put a more expensive top on a less expensive guitar and the D-55 had a less expensive top when adi is more in demand but expensive. My question is fair.... I did not bad mouth guild. I have spent 21k on guitars past three years. and when buying a expensive.price but not as well known guitar or brand I have a RIGHT to ask..The Guild mgmt. Talking with me were very nice. I ask on here.to get other views and see if I was making a good investment. Very unsure now, so I cancelled. But I may buy if/when dealer stocks one. So no bashing here.. After all its my money!

I've bad-mouthed Guild's management on more than one occasion. They've deserved it. You're not buying a manager, though. You're buying a guitar. Somehow, Guild is able to produce some really fantastic instruments that, if you look around, can still be had at pretty reasonable prices. I'd recommend you go with a smaller dealer. Our own Bing (Guitars of Montana) comes to mind, though there are many others. Don't expect personal service from a Big Box store.
 

chazmo

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kbob,

I believe the "troll" comment was retracted and the poster apologized. I think you should note that as a new member of the board here, people don't know you and they are reacting to your exclamation points. Anyway, please know that product knowledge takes some time to gather and patience is a virtue around here.

I may have to shut this thread down if personal comments persist.
 

fronobulax

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Well, I'm not moderating yet.

Two things. First, and I'd like someone else who was there to back me up on this, but I recall a discussion on wood at LMG II. During the discussion the Guild folks noted that Adirondack Spruce is becoming harder and harder to obtain in the quantity and quality needed for guitar tops. Thus they were moving to Stika Spruce as a replacement. If this is true it strongly suggests that in five years there will be very few, if any guitars, made by anyone with Adi tops. Furthermore those that are made with Adi tops will be made in low volumes bu luthiers and companies that stocked up and hoarded Adi spruce. So if you think the difference between Adi and Stika is important and noticeable, take a cue from Brazilian rosewood and seek out Adi tops wherever they be now because they won't be available in a few years.

Related, at LMG III there was a discussion on wood grading and the Guild folks said there was no objective external standard for grading wood. It is quite possible that Guild would grade a piece of wood as AA and martin would grade it as AAA. They told several stories of suppliers who offered supplier graded AAA wood that was not good enough for guitar tops. So if the catalog spec is AAA Spruce what that means is Guild graded it as AAA and it was darn good wood.

Speaking of catalog specs it is often a deliberate practice to be vague on some specs that are not considered significant. Thus the catalog description could be AAA Spruce and in 2011 they used Adi and in 2013 they used Stika. So if Guild did not specify the type of spruce then they were signaling that they did not consider it of significance and they were trying to protect themselves from being forced to source a particular type regardless of market conditions. Bottom line here is that if the difference between Adi and Stika or Carpathian matters to the customer then it is the customer's responsibility to confirm what will be on the guitar they buy. If you order expecting Adi but no one actually claimed it would be Adi then the misunderstanding is all the customers.

Long winded, but I said two points.

Central to what started this is that kbob2 talked to someone and got what turned out to be bad information. What is missing is exactly who that someone was. If it was the dealer, Sweetwater, then Sweetwater is to blame unless they have some way to deflect it on their supplier, Guild. Otherwise the error was kbob's in his selection of who to talk to. That said, it occurs to me that the real issue here is that kbob might have been used to calling the Martin factory, finding what was in stock and expected delivery time and then placing an order through the dealer of his choice. In which case calling "Phoenix" and then placing an order at Sweetwater would make sense excpet that Guild does not operate the way Martin does.

All just speculation on my part but sometimes I get this urge to understand so that I can fix. See "It's Not About the Nail".
 

kbob2

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I deleted all of my post and comments and apologized and re stated my comments hopefully less provoking. Sorry about how I started this post.
 

kbob2

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Well, I'm not moderating yet.

Two things. First, and I'd like someone else who was there to back me up on this, but I recall a discussion on wood at LMG II. During the discussion the Guild folks noted that Adirondack Spruce is becoming harder and harder to obtain in the quantity and quality needed for guitar tops. Thus they were moving to Stika Spruce as a replacement. If this is true it strongly suggests that in five years there will be very few, if any guitars, made by anyone with Adi tops. Furthermore those that are made with Adi tops will be made in low volumes bu luthiers and companies that stocked up and hoarded Adi spruce. So if you think the difference between Adi and Stika is important and noticeable, take a cue from Brazilian rosewood and seek out Adi tops wherever they be now because they won't be available in a few years.

Related, at LMG III there was a discussion on wood grading and the Guild folks said there was no objective external standard for grading wood. It is quite possible that Guild would grade a piece of wood as AA and martin would grade it as AAA. They told several stories of suppliers who offered supplier graded AAA wood that was not good enough for guitar tops. So if the catalog spec is AAA Spruce what that means is Guild graded it as AAA and it was darn good wood.

Speaking of catalog specs it is often a deliberate practice to be vague on some specs that are not considered significant. Thus the catalog description could be AAA Spruce and in 2011 they used Adi and in 2013 they used Stika. So if Guild did not specify the type of spruce then they were signaling that they did not consider it of significance and they were trying to protect themselves from being forced to source a particular type regardless of market conditions. Bottom line here is that if the difference between Adi and Stika or Carpathian matters to the customer then it is the customer's responsibility to confirm what will be on the guitar they buy. If you order expecting Adi but no one actually claimed it would be Adi then the misunderstanding is all the customers.

Long winded, but I said two points.

Central to what started this is that kbob2 talked to someone and got what turned out to be bad information. What is missing is exactly who that someone was. If it was the dealer, Sweetwater, then Sweetwater is to blame unless they have some way to deflect it on their supplier, Guild. Otherwise the error was kbob's in his selection of who to talk to. That said, it occurs to me that the real issue here is that kbob might have been used to calling the Martin factory, finding what was in stock and expected delivery time and then placing an order through the dealer of his choice. In which case calling "Phoenix" and then placing an order at Sweetwater would make sense excpet that Guild does not operate the way Martin does.

All just speculation on my part but sometimes I get this urge to understand so that I can fix. See "It's Not About the Nail".







I have deleted all of my prior post and apologized for how I started it off and it was provoking without intent. I also said on the top issue I read spec's on couple of models and the as an example the D-50 said solid red spruce. some other spec's on other guitars said Adirondack spruce specifically. I read the spec's on the D-55 and all it said was AAA spruce. so having the tops described several different ways I "assumed mine was red spruce also and being a little more expensive allowed also the assumption of adirondack". All this being said Now I know not to assume. Next time I will ask my dealer about wood composites before I assume. But Guilds top descriptions are very varied. Martin is pretty specific on stating Adirondack or Sitka spruce or englemann. But guild said red spruce, Adirondack, AAA spruce(to me meaning"what kind of spruce") could it have been a little misleading?? No matter I know now and again sorry for the opening comments and sounding harsh....
 

gilded

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kbob2, et al,

First off, I don't think anybody's trying to be a troll. I think if I waited five weeks for a guitar that was supposed to be shipped in a few days, I'd cancel the order, too.

Secondly, kbob2, I have some info for you about Adirondack and Sitka spruces. Hope you enjoy it!

Adirondack Spruce trees and Sitka Spruce trees grow in different places in the North American Continent and at different elevations. Adirondack Spruce is often found at higher elevations and is a slower-growing tree than Sitka.

Here is some info about the two varieties of spruce from Wikipedia articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_sitchensis

Flat top Gibson and Martin 'tops' before WW II were made from Adirondack Spruce. People got used to the sound of Adirondack instruments and a lot of the iconic sounds of the '30's and '40's recordings come from lightly-braced, Adirondack-topped instruments.

In the guitar manufacturing world, Sitka came into use when companies such as Gibson made wartime products like wing spars for gliders. My guess is that wood-product manufacturers needed a steady source of good, knot-free hardwood to accomplish their wartime goals and Sitka was simply a 'better get' than Adirondack.

After the War, Sitka was both easy to source and a known product. Adirondack, by comparison, came from depleted forest areas where the big trees were all gone. Accordingly, Sitka became the wood of preference for all of the wood-product manufacturers in the good old USA, including Martin and Gibson at some point.

At the same time as the top-woods were changing at Martin and Gibson, the products were being redesigned at the request of the Bean Counters. Lightly braced guitars and lifetime warranties do not mix, apparently. So, interior bracing became progressively heavier between the late '30's and the '60's. Bridge plates (the plate on the interior side of the top underneath the bridge) also got to be bigger and bigger from both companies, all in the effort to cut operating costs.

The trouble was, the new guitars sounded bad in comparison to the older guitars. Players noticed and commented on it. Finally, the first-wave of boutique builders went to Martin and Gibson (beginning in the late '60's) and started asking questions. The answers were, 'we changed the top-wood and the bracing'. Builders found a way to get some Adirondack Spruce or some Brazilian Rosewood and Players noticed the audible difference in sound.

What Players didn't notice was the return to lighter bracing inside the instruments, or the elevated build-quality from the New Age of builders. It all makes a difference, folks.

So now we are two-three generations into the Rebirth of good sounding guitars. There are great factory managers like Ren Ferguson, who know how to do it all! We are living in a Golden Age of Instruments, right now. A New Hartford-made Guild D55 is going to be a wonderful axe, because experienced builders are making the right decisions when the instrument gets built.

Does that mean that Sitka and Adirondack sound the same? No, but they each have a purpose and a place. As well, boutique builders will tell you that a good piece of Sitka will sound better than an inferior piece of Adirondack (and vice versa). If you call up a small builder and say 'what's your best top wood for a dreadnaught?' and he says 'I've got some great Sitka and have built 10 kick-*** dreads this year with it, but one of my two Adirondack customers was a little disappointed', what are you going to do??

In general, I think Sitka sounds better for strumming and light fingerpicking and Adirondack sound better when you are playing either hard Bluegrass or wrenching the guts out of a guitar. I have great love for both top-woods. I owned an '06 Tacoma-made D55 for six months or so and it was a great guitar, Sitka top and all. In fact, it was a wonderfully great guitar!!

But again, I'm not an expert. Even if I was an expert, what sounds good to me might not sound good to another person.

So kbob2, best of luck finding a Guild that you like. I bet it will be a good one! Harry aka gilded
 

Ridgemont

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But Guilds top descriptions are very varied. Martin is pretty specific on stating Adirondack or Sitka spruce or englemann….
My interest in guitars started with Guild and was fueled by the knowledge on this forum. My interest slowly switched to small bodied Martins. When it did I joined UMGF and started looking at specs. I was overwhelmed by the amount of detailed specs that were available on the Martin website and its retailers. Unfortunately the details that Martin provides is unique to Martin. I am obsessed with saddle string spacing, but find it difficult to find that info for Guilds, Gibsons, Taylors and several small builders. For Martin, it is printed right on the box. So I learned to place my trust in brand specific guitar forums like LTG to help with all the nitty gritty details that are not listed on the brand website. Ask us, we know and can provide many more details than Guild and FMIC are willing to provide. We won't bite.

kbob, I know this has been a very frustrating process with Sweetwater and a few goobers over at Fender, but remember why you began searching for the D55. You posted a fantastic youtube video over on UMGF of a guy playing his fancy blinged out D55 and made it sound better than it looks. If it sounds that great, then it is worth having no matter what the specs say or what wood is on the top. Guild has made that guitar for roughly 60 years, so they know a thing or two about what makes that guitar special.

If Sweetwater burned you, then cancel. Call Bing or Rocky Street Sounds. They are bound to have one in stock at a great price and can ship instantly.
 

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Plus One on BingK! I bought two NH Guild guitars through him and. i would not hesitate to buy one through him again.
 

Ridgemont

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mavuser

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Ok thankfully I was able to go through and delete all of my post and I am glad this is possible on this forum. My original post without intent was provoking but not intended to provoke negativity however after I read my post I displayed what appeared anger and frustration also it appears I wanted a bunch of guys to jump on the wagon and chastise Guild and or my dealer. However it was/is a disappointment and very circumstantial and things do happen not to receive my guitar when stated and yet to find it pushed further down the road. . I guess I could have ask guys on here first about guild experiences and it might have been proper and possibly could still have opened a can of worms and maybe not. None the less I retracted my post and re posted with these comments and say I am sorry and yes my post was provoking and negative. I could have simply posted my experience with the promises and let down as a experience and left it with some hope there would be another opportunity. None the less If I choose to revisit the Guild D-55 I just may when the dealer places one in stock and He is 200 miles away from me and the only dealer that close but yet go play the guitar first.. . Also he offers 0% interest for 24 mos. That was key. Considering all the things I mentioned from availability to playability with the AAA spruce top it might be better to head up and play the guitar before I buy it. This opening new experience for me and Guild guitar has not been a bad one but a simply let down on the delivery miss Que!
I apologize for my comments that didn't mean to rile and get negative come backs. I enjoy this group and also will continue to research Guild models and features before I commit and this way avoid top or composite confusion. So I am sorry and the door has been opened for a new day and learning opportunity without penalty or a financial disaster. So accept my apology! Thanks guys !

definately got off to a rocky start but the edited post deserves to be seen.

and hey man, things can be stressful sometimes, but guitars shouldnt be. Guilds are not mass produced and there could easily be a run on supply for a popular model. especially with the internet these days. Dealers will tell you what they know about ETA and instrument specifics, but sometimes they are optimistic or just reading info from something else.

good luck to u, sounds like u have other guitars. def check out a Guild when u can. cheers
 
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