Guild JF-30-12 String Acoustic, 90's

tomvwash

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Does anyone have insight into these? Reverb has a handful of choices at the moment, circa 1990's. I just sold a 2010 GAD F1512e--huge sound-but partially hung up on the made in China factor, and I'd like to go back a few more years toward borderline vintage. And are these solid woods front and back? Maple back is somehow not reassuring as opposed to Rosewood. There's at least one demo 2018 F-512 model for more than double the cost, tempting, but difficult to justify for something that is not going to play a huge part in the repertoire and playing time. Thank you for any experience and opinions.

Tom
 
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JF-30

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I owned a 6 string model and it is a great guitar. I recently sold it cause it just never got played and I wanted it to go to a place it would. Mine was build in '87. I have no reason to believe the 12ers would be a bad choice.
 

dapmdave

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I've had a couple of these.

They were very pretty and I was hoping they would be like an F-412 without the bling & the higher cost. But sadly, they were not. They were fine for what they were, just not what I was after.

I think the Jf-30 models were all made with a laminated maple arched back and a solid top. Not sure about the sides, but I don't think the sides contribute a lot being solid or otherwise. The maple will sound like maple (bright and jangly). By contrast, F-512 is all solid wood with a braced flat-back, in rosewood. Very different guitar. So the moral of my story is: Don't buy a JF-30-12 thinking it would be anything other than what it is.
 
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wileypickett

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As with any instrument, it's all subjective. If you haven't had a chance to actually play one of these and are buying one online, be sure you buy from someone who offers return pivelages.

A JF30 12-string was my first Guild. I went to check it out not expecting much -- I was completely unfamiliar with the brand -- and was blown away. It quickly replaced my Taylor 855, which I eventually sold.

I currently own nearly a dozen Guild 12-strings (I know -- nuts!). The jumbos are by far my favorites and I still rate the JF30 12 highly.

Guild's JF30 and F412 both feature maple backs, which are arched (bowl-back) for greater projecton supposedly. All Guild's bowl-back models have backs that are made of laminated wood and without interior bracing. While laminates are looked down upon by some, Guild made a virtue of the construction, which you'll find on several of their six-string and 12-string models, all of which have their fans here.

I love 'em myself. Because of the maple backs, the sound is crisp and the strings clearly defined. The jumbo body helps boost the low end, which you lose a bit of with maple.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out.

Glenn
 

Cougar

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Does anyone have insight into these? Reverb has a handful of choices at the moment.... And are these solid woods front and back?

I've got a burst JF30-12 made in Corona in 2002. It is spectacular! Yes, the back is laminate maple, but don't be confused -- It is in a different league from other laminate-backed guitars. The back is one piece, arched, and most importantly, braceless. Other brands boast of "scalloped bracing" to reduce the dampening effect of the structural bracing. Guild's archbacks do away with the bracing altogether! The sound is huge!

Note that some JF30-12s have an ebony fretboard, and some do not. I have to disagree with dapmdave -- the JF30-12 has essentially the same specs as Guild's F412, but without some of the bling. So the sonic output must be pretty similar.

My JF30-12 is a keeeeeeeeper!

jib793.jpg
 

tomvwash

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I can see why. Nice instrument. I'm all for huge sound, but picking up on the maple / bright / jangly references above, which I'm not looking for. For lack of a better phrase, is there some boom and bass on the bottom ends with the JF30? Now that Glenn has mentioned his 12, 12-string Guilds, I wouldn't feel so bad springing for the F512.

Tom
 

Guildedagain

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I have an archback Rosewood Guild (everybody should ;) and it's my go to guitar during the day, at the computer, etc. I can't describe the sound in all its intricacies, but it's right one the money, big, balanced, crisp, just beautiful.
 

wileypickett

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Hey Tom,

I wouldn t describe the JF30 12 as bright or jangly, particularly. Punchy, yes, with good projection and string clairity. (I play fingerstyle, with a thumbpick, and I use D'Addario Med / Heavy strings, tuned way down -- low E down to C) .

I had an F512, which was great, but sold it (to Nick Schillace, a great fingerstyle player, and friend, in Detroit) in favor of the F412 and the JF30 12, which I hung onto, if that tells you anything.

I've owned two JF30 12s (and am about to own a third!) and they're not all the same. (These were made in the era before CNC machines.) The second one I owned (in blue) was a great looking guitar, but to my ear didn't sound as good as the first one (blonde), which I still have. (I sold the blue one years ago.)

I also have a couple F212s and F212XLs, versions from both the Westerly and Hoboken plants. Recommend them too.

Keep an open mind, try as many as you can.
 

Cougar

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...I'm all for huge sound, but picking up on the maple / bright / jangly references above, which I'm not looking for.

I don't describe the tone of my JF30-12 like that. To me, it's full, well balanced....

For lack of a better phrase, is there some boom and bass on the bottom ends with the JF30?

Definitely. That's what differentiates it from the less expensive models.

Now that Glenn has mentioned his 12, 12-string Guilds, I wouldn't feel so bad springing for the F512.

I've only got five, LOL. The solid rosewood back on the F512 does indeed produce a different tone. More woody, I guess I'd say. They're expensive though. I happened to get a great deal on a 2018 F512 made in Guild's new Oxnard plant. It had been damaged, so it was less than half the price of a new one. The damage was basically cosmetic - it's at my local luthier's getting touched up.

Guild 12-strings can't be beat. I'd say the F512, F412, and JF30-12 are all Holy Grail guitars...

F512
fff493.jpg

fff494.jpg
 

dapmdave

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Note that some JF30-12s have an ebony fretboard, and some do not. I have to disagree with dapmdave -- the JF30-12 has essentially the same specs as Guild's F412, but without some of the bling. So the sonic output must be pretty similar.

For me at least, they were different. But my sample size for JF30-12s and for F-412s is only two of each, so you may have had better luck than I did!

That's a beautiful guitar you have there.
 
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tomvwash

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Ok, well put on that last thread with the Holy Grail reference. I will go for a JF30 on Reverb this week. Thank you all for the collective points of view here. Much appreciated,

Tom
 

Cougar

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I will go for a JF30 on Reverb this week.....

There are some nice ones up there! The ones described as very good or better should be great, but as with all online buys, I'd contact the seller and ask about the saddle height, maybe ask if they've done a neck test (a straight edge laid along the fretboard should "point" right to the top of the bridge). Best of luck and keep us informed! BTW, welcome to the boards!
 

Brucebubs

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I have an archback Rosewood Guild (everybody should ;) and it's my go to guitar during the day, at the computer, etc. I can't describe the sound in all its intricacies, but it's right one the money, big, balanced, crisp, just beautiful.

Did Guild make a rosewood archback?
 

adorshki

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Did Guild make a rosewood archback?

Yes but it is one of their rarest configurations.
Finally came to the conclusion that it must have filled a very specific sonic niche with a pretty limited audience.
The DCE-5 was a rosewood arched back dreadnought of mid-late '90's vintage:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars/dce5.html
They even made some arched F50R's in the mid-late '60's.
Chazmo's "Cap" was one of 'em:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...come-quot-Cap-quot-to-the-Chazmo-family/page3
Interesting detail on those was the centerstrip.
Somebody noted in a different thread that it must have indicated 2 halves glued on edge and then put in the press but I think it more likely that it would have been far easier to simply use 2 halves for the outer layer and put the strip between 'em and then press it into shape.
The laminations had at least 3 layers, using an economy "filler wood" like larch or alder for the center layer.
The rosewood and maple (and later mahogany for the 'hog body archbacks) sheets themselves came from a furniture veneer maker.
That would also explain how they achieved this effect:
"I spoke with Hans about this guitar earlier, and he thinks it's likely to be a Brazilian laminate. I agree. His book actually mentions some experimentation like this by the Hoboken folks. The interior and exterior of the rosewood in this guitar are perfectly matched (grain, knots, etc.), which I find very impressive..
The veneer sheets were planed successively from a flitch so any 2 consecutive sheets had nearly identical grain patterns.
In fact I didn't realize my D25 had a laminated back until I noticed they'd goofed and glued the sheets 180 degrees reversed from each other shortly after I bought it.
(I was kinda green about guitars and Guild back then.)
But it didn't bother me, the light went on and I thought "Aha! Besides the sound enhancement, laminations are stronger than simple solid sheets, and reversing the grain makes it even stronger!"
Only after I joined here did one of the old Westerly hands reveal it technically would have been considered a cosmetic flaw.

Seems to me there's one more model I'm blanking on at the moment....oh yea, the F5ce Grand Auditorium body (F40 16" lower bout outline):
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars/f5ce.html

I've got a burst JF30-12 made in Corona in 2002. It is spectacular! Yes, the back is laminate maple, but don't be confused -- It is in a different league from other laminate-backed guitars. The back is one piece, arched, and most importantly, braceless. Other brands boast of "scalloped bracing" to reduce the dampening effect of the structural bracing.
That only applies to tops and Guild used it on high-end models too.
Tops produce more than 95% of a guitar's voice and do so by resonating, so yes bracing is very important on a top and it's the "secret sauce" of many makers.
It's laminated tops that generated the myth of laminate being "inferior construction".
Those tend to dampen off tone like higher harmonics although even some of those have a lot of respect, like the "Red label" Yamahas.
Backs are relatively sonically inert, their primary role is as reflectors but as such the body/tonewood does color the sound.
Rosewood tends to emphasize bass, 'hog pushes the midrange and contrary to popular belief maple does not push the trebles, but rather, tends to reflect all freqs evenly.
It's the physical characteristic of human hearing that makes it sound "jangly" to us:
Treble freqs sound louder to us than bass freqs of equal volume.
(Explains why sub-woofers are so popular).
But it also makes maple record the "truest":
It sounds the most like the actual guitar and doesn't suffer from imbalance of a particular frequency range.

Note that some JF30-12s have an ebony fretboard, and some do not. I have to disagree with dapmdave -- the JF30-12 has essentially the same specs as Guild's F412, but without some of the bling. So the sonic output must be pretty similar.
That's gonna depend on the bracing and topwood quality and to a slight degree the fretboard wood like you mentioned, and even the given build periods.
But I know where Dave's coming from and comparing a JF30-12 from say the late '90's to an F412 from the late '60s' isn't really an apples-to-apples comparisons like say "What's the difference between a Granny Smith and a Mackintosh?"

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION:
And finally, for the OP (Welcome aboard, Tomvwash!) re taming maple's jangly rep and 12-ers in particular, strings actually have a surprisingly large impact on a guitar's voice.
This one has some good insights, note posts 21 and 22 in particular:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?172146-D-Addario-extra-light-strings-on-F512/page3
 
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kostask

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.............

Interesting detail on those was the centerstrip.
Somebody noted in a different thread that it must have indicated 2 halves glued on edge and then put in the press but I think it more likely that it would have been far easier to simply use 2 halves for the outer layer and put the strip between 'em and then press it into shape.
The laminations had at least 3 layers, using an economy "filler wood" like larch or alder for the center layer.
The rosewood and maple (and later mahogany for the 'hog body archbacks) sheets themselves came from a furniture veneer maker.
That would also explain how they achieved this effect:
"I spoke with Hans about this guitar earlier, and he thinks it's likely to be a Brazilian laminate. I agree. His book actually mentions some experimentation like this by the Hoboken folks. The interior and exterior of the rosewood in this guitar are perfectly matched (grain, knots, etc.), which I find very impressive..
The veneer sheets were planed successively from a flitch so any 2 consecutive sheets had nearly identical grain patterns.
In fact I didn't realize my D25 had a laminated back until I noticed they'd goofed and glued the sheets 180 degrees reversed from each other shortly after I bought it.
(I was kinda green about guitars and Guild back then.)
But it didn't bother me, the light went on and I thought "Aha! Besides the sound enhancement, laminations are stronger than simple solid sheets, and reversing the grain makes it even stronger!"
On
....

I am under the impression that the center strip would have had to have been added after the pressing process. The pressing process would have most likely popped the center strip off under the increased stress of heat and pressure.

Also, the grain matching inside and outside of a guitar is not really an indicator of anything. Takamine, for one, grain matches the inside and outside layer of their laminates, and have admitted doing so. Even more, it does nothing to indicate what the inner lamination is made of.

There are "good" laminates, and "bad laminates used in guitars. "Good" good laminates have inner layers of some hardwood, not necessarily the same hardwood as the outer layers, but solid hardwood of some type. "Bad" laminates use something that looks like grass, or hay, which damps the vibration coming from the back. The famed sound of the early laminated back Yamahas comes from using a hardwood inner layer. Current generation Godin acoustics are made the same way (usually wild cherry laminate, with all 3 layers being wild cherry). I have seen cut apart laminates from cheap, off brand, off shore guitars, and they are the ones that use the "bad" laminates.
 

wileypickett

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Got the "Walnut" JF30 12-string via UPS today -- it's great! May be the best sounding of the three I've owned (i still have the first one), even with the bridge lift extending all the way to the octave string pin holes. I was afraid to tune it all the way up to pitch but wanted to get a sense of it, so tuned the bass strings up enough to play. Lots of growl!

Going to get the bridge properly seated and then we'll see what we see. But having bought this in a moment of utter dunderheadedness (I thought "Walnut" referred to the top wood -- it refers to the color!), I'm actaly pretty pleased with myself. I made a cheap offer, the seller accepted it, AND shipped it via Priority for free.

I'd almost forgotten how much fun it is to get a guitar in the mail!

And man, is Walnut dark?! The guitar looks black.

Glenn
 

Brucebubs

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I've posted this clip before but if you haven't seen it I believe it was filmed at the Oxnard plant in front of the actual press used to make the arch backs.

 

wileypickett

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I've got a good half dozen Guilds (maybe more) that went through that thing, so just seeing it gives me a little thrill. But -- I'd really love to see that press in action!

Speaking of which, posting this update here too (it's also on the JF30 thread), since it first came up here:

* * *

Got the "Walnut" JF30 12-string via UPS today -- it's great! May be the best sounding of the three I've owned (i still have the first one), even with the bridge lift extending all the way to the octave string pin holes. I was afraid to tune it all the way up to pitch but wanted to get a sense of it, so tuned the bass strings up enough to play. Lots of growl!

Going to get the bridge properly seated and then we'll see what we see.

But having bought this in a moment of utter dunderheadedness (I thought "Walnut" referred to the top wood -- it refers to the color!), I'm actually pretty pleased with myself. I made a cheap offer, the seller accepted it, AND shipped it via Priority for free.

I'd almost forgotten how much fun it is to get a guitar in the mail!

And man, is Walnut dark?! The guitar looks black.

Glenn
 

adorshki

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I am under the impression that the center strip would have had to have been added after the pressing process. The pressing process would have most likely popped the center strip off under the increased stress of heat and pressure.
Kostas, that doesn't make any sense to me at all:
First, it's trapped inside the 2 halves of the die while being pressed, it can't "pop off".
Second, it's actually not a single piece of wood: it's constructed like rosettes of many different elements, they're not going to behave like a solid strip of wood with grain running longitudinally that might want to "pop back" to flat if it could break the hold of the woodworking glue with the most creep (stretch) resistance known: hide glue.
Besides which, that same principle applies to the whole back, after all, the outsid layer must be straining to pop off too but don't think I've ever heard of aces of a Guild back "de-laminating"
3rd, seems like it'd be heck of lot harder to "inlay" the strip into an already curved abck than to install the strip before pressing it into shape.
(And I stand humbly prepared to be "Hans'd")
Also, the grain matching inside and outside of a guitar is not really an indicator of anything.
Only said Guild took pains to match the grin patterns of the inside and outside layers for cosmetic reasons:
Only after I joined here did one of the old Westerly hands reveal it technically would have been considered a cosmetic flaw.
Didn't mean to imply anything else.
But it has fooled some folks like the guy many years ago who insisted his just-acquired F65ce had a solid arched back because the inside grain matched the outside.
Still wouldn't believe us even after we explained it to 'im.


Takamine, for one, grain matches the inside and outside layer of their laminates, and have admitted doing so. Even more, it does nothing to indicate what the inner lamination is made of.

There are "good" laminates, and "bad laminates used in guitars. "Good" good laminates have inner layers of some hardwood, not necessarily the same hardwood as the outer layers, but solid hardwood of some type. "Bad" laminates use something that looks like grass, or hay, which damps the vibration coming from the back. The famed sound of the early laminated back Yamahas comes from using a hardwood inner layer. Current generation Godin acoustics are made the same way (usually wild cherry laminate, with all 3 layers being wild cherry). I have seen cut apart laminates from cheap, off brand, off shore guitars, and they are the ones that use the "bad" laminates.
OK, that's a new one for me, I think.
But the principle that the top's responsible for the vast majority of sound output is still true, and laminated tops do NOT resonate the same way solid ones do.
 
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