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Thread: 1956 X-375 in the UK... Hmmm

  1. #11
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Cohen View Post
    Also, I'm not sure about the tailpiece. I owned one of these (1957), liked it a lot, and it had a harp tailpiece. IMO, the price is a little high, at least for the US market.
    Quote Originally Posted by kakerlak View Post
    It looks like a nice one, but would be significantly overpriced for the American market. I can't say what premium you'd ordinarily expect to pay in the UK, so it may be a decent deal over there. Here, though, I'd expect more of a $2.7k-3.2k range for these in sort of decent original condition, like the one you're eyeing.
    There does seem to be a consistent premium for these vintage Guilds over there, I assume based on scarcity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Cohen View Post
    Also, I'm not sure about the tailpiece. I owned one of these (1957), liked it a lot, and it had a harp tailpiece. IMO, the price is a little high, at least for the US market.
    And I know very early Guilds had "trapeze" tailpieces but don't remember how late they were used, but you can see some in The Guild Guitar Book.
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by adorshki View Post
    There does seem to be a consistent premium for these vintage Guilds over there, I assume based on scarcity.


    And I know very early Guilds had "trapeze" tailpieces but don't remember how late they were used, but you can see some in The Guild Guitar Book.
    My ‘56 A-50 has a trapeze tailpiece. However, in The Bible Hans mentions that higher end guitars had a Kluson tailpiece, not a trapeze, like this
    Chris

    ‘
    56 A-50, '57 CE-100, ‘58 A-350, '60 X-150, ‘60 SF II, '61 M-20, '62 F-20, '64 S-50 Jetstar, '64 Mark II, '65 SFIV, '71 S-90, '75 F-112, '75 Mark IVp, '81 M-80, '82 S-275, ‘87 Nightbird I, '88 Detonator, ‘92 F-15ce, '93 X-500, '97 Bluesbird, '99 F-30, ‘14 NS Aristocrat, '16 NS T-bird
    '54 Masteramp, '60 99j, '63 200-S, '66 T-bass, ‘66 Thunder T1-12, '69 T-star, ‘93 Sequoia,
    ‘68 Bari Uke

    http://acornhouseworkshop.com/
    '08 Parlor, '10 Butternut Deuce, '13 Rounder, '14 Kulakeiki

  3. #13
    I thought the Cites thing went away recently for used items at least....?

  4. #14
    Senior Member SFIV1967's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiveltung View Post
    I thought the Cites thing went away recently for used items at least....?
    Only for East Indian Rosewood and a few others. But not for Brazilian Rosewood!

    Don't ask me how guys like a Joe Bonamassa can buy vintage instruments (which all contain Braz) in Europe and Australia (which he did) and bring them back in the US.

    A good article about the hazzles is here: https://www.mk-guitar.com/2014/01/31...-and-what-not/

    Ralf
    Last edited by SFIV1967; 11-18-2019 at 03:36 PM.

  5. #15
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFIV1967 View Post
    Only for East Indian Rosewood and a few others. But not for Brazilian Rosewood!

    Don't ask me how guys like a Joe Bonamassa can buy vintage instruments (which all contain Braz) in Europe and Australia (which he did) and bring them back in the US.
    I was reading that old F&WS letter again this morning and wondering about the musical instrument exemption for traveling musicians.
    (Wish I could copy'n'paste from a PDF!)
    https://www.fws.gov/international/pd...ember-2016.pdf
    Anyway, in question 47 on pg. 23 they take pains to describe what "Pre-convention" means, and that anything made from wood harvested prior to the CITES listing date qualifies as pre-convention and is exempt
    from document requirements, but don't specifically address the unique case of Brazilian.
    The answer to question #52 finally seems to nail it down:
    "You do not need a US CITES import permit from our office documentation for unless the instrument contains species listed in Appendix I AND is not preconvention. The United States does not require the issuance of import permits for CITES pre-Convention specimens nor Appendix II specimens."
    So if one could prove the Brazilian is pre-Convention then one could bring it into the US freely.
    Touring with it could be problematic though, since the issuance of an instrument certificate is predicated on the piece meeting CITES requirements and the US rules out Appendix I specimens from being allowed to qualify for export documentation even under personal carry exemption.
    Maybe Joe can afford to task "one of his people" with dealing with F&WS and Customs to find or enable the right "discretionary loophole"?
    Although the subject of this question was international shipment for repair, I do see a note at bottom of page 20 that F&WS will consider inquiries on a case-by-case basis and that tells me there may be a loophole available there, especially if the Braz itself is pre-Convention:
    Quote Originally Posted by SFIV1967 View Post
    A good article about the hazzles is here: https://www.mk-guitar.com/2014/01/31...-and-what-not/
    Ralf
    Greta article, addresses that "pre-Convention" question specifically, for items going IN to the EU, at least.
    And we know the US also doesn't require incoming documentation for pre-convention specimens.
    "If you don’t buy the guitar to resell it (or to make money from it in any other way, e.g. to sell photos of it), it is for private purpose."
    Seems to confirm what the F&WS service outlined, and suspect Joe's been able to demonstrate his intent to keep the instruments.
    Still, obtaining the certification's gotta be problematic, and as you've discovered, if one comes here to buy the guitar, as far as I know right now it'd be problematic to get the export documentation, due to the clause in that letter that says Appendix I species aren't eligible for export certificates or personal property exemption.
    Perhaps pre-convention specimens would qualify under the same rationale that allows a US seller to get the export document stamped in the right box to allow the international sale?
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  6. #16
    What's the date of the convention?
    Hey Chris, isn't that an X-350?
    Guilds:
    Hoboken
    1963 A-500 B (ex Guitars'n Jazz, Summit New Jersey)
    1965 D-50 braz.(ex Peterson)
    1965 F-312 braz. (ex Peterson)
    Westerly
    1994 D-60 coming in December, can't wait! (ex Peterson)
    2001 D-30, Tennessee Orange (ex Peterson)


    Epiphone Archtop:
    1934 Royal, walnut back/sides with vintage DeArmond 1000 (ex Joe Vinikow, Archtop.com)

    Amp:
    Rivera Jazz Suprema 55 Ruby, the ultimate jazz amp!

  7. #17
    Senior Member Walter Broes's Avatar
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    Nice looking guitar, but I'd bid lower than the asking price - it's high to begin with, and the guitar seems to be missing the pickguard and the original tailpiece.

    I think Ralf is right about the Brazilian Rosewood, but I haven't heard of a single inside-the-EU occurence of a guitar being held in customs because of a BR fingerboard, and I travel inside the EU with my old Guild (and Danelectro - which, funny enough has a brazilian board as well) without any trouble.

    -1960 CE100D
    -1961 Starfire III Special
    -1962 X175
    -1963X175
    -2011 F47R
    -2015 Newark Street X175 BLK

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Cohen View Post
    What's the date of the convention?
    Hey Chris, isn't that an X-350?
    Yes, just an example of what tailpiece it should have.
    Chris

    ‘
    56 A-50, '57 CE-100, ‘58 A-350, '60 X-150, ‘60 SF II, '61 M-20, '62 F-20, '64 S-50 Jetstar, '64 Mark II, '65 SFIV, '71 S-90, '75 F-112, '75 Mark IVp, '81 M-80, '82 S-275, ‘87 Nightbird I, '88 Detonator, ‘92 F-15ce, '93 X-500, '97 Bluesbird, '99 F-30, ‘14 NS Aristocrat, '16 NS T-bird
    '54 Masteramp, '60 99j, '63 200-S, '66 T-bass, ‘66 Thunder T1-12, '69 T-star, ‘93 Sequoia,
    ‘68 Bari Uke

    http://acornhouseworkshop.com/
    '08 Parlor, '10 Butternut Deuce, '13 Rounder, '14 Kulakeiki

  9. #19
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Cohen View Post
    What's the date of the convention?
    They're periodic, but the one that put all the remaining unlisted rosewoods into Category II was in Nov. '16 and went into effect in Jan of '17.
    The one that loosened the restrictions on individual sales of Appendix II rosewoods (basically everything except Braz) was last August in Geneva with effective date of November 26th this year.
    https://www.cites.org/eng/CITES_CoP1...ments_29082019
    And again, that was just to ease up the commercial transactions, but the personal carry exemption for up to 20lbs has always been in effect.
    Admittedly, on my part at least, there's always been some uncertainty as to precisely where and "when" Braz might qualify for the personal carry exemption.
    Walter seems to have been enjoying the benefit of that always-intended lenience towards owners of individual instruments who have no intentions of selling.


    Oh, just realized, maybe the question was "What's the date for Brazilian (or a given species of wood?)", it's the date it was first listed on a CITES Appendix.
    Brazilian was first listed in '92 so anything harvested before that date is pre-convention.
    Proving when it was harvested might be the real problem if the documentation for a given instrument is poor.
    But obviously if one can demonstrate a guitar was built in '90 then the wood must have been harvested prior to '92, right?
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

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