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Thread: Help with possible Thunder 1 purchase?

  1. #31
    matsickma,

    Any difference between how the beige and the black RTVs sound? I've never heard a black one and wonder if the 2 amps might be slightly different in construction. Or maybe not, that's why I'm asking you!!
    Quote Originally Posted by fronobulax View Post

    And I like Harry's approach.
    '66 Starfire I SB bass, '67 Mark IV pear wood, '68 F-112, '75 Mark 4 P padauk,
    '66 Thunderbird amp, '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp and, yet another '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp!

  2. #32
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    Hey Gilded,
    In general I would say no difference in tone or charactericts. Granted I didn't swap things around to make all things equivalent. I have owned many of these amps over the past 20 years. I have never checked to see if the main circuits and components are identical in value and manufacturer. But my ears, when young and old, seemed similar. Naturally the 12" speaker model, type and manufacturer will have a major impact to total sound.
    However I still clame they are essentially equal in sound attributes.

    Not sure why Guild redesigned the chassis on the Thunder1 but it is a better structure. The difference between the black and beige models is a little different cabinet size and shape and more importantly the black RTV cab is particle board where the chassis of the beige amp is pine. The beige amp also has a AC power phase reversal switch.
    All of us geasers remember the two prong AC power chords without polarity plugs and the electrical shocks when touching a MIC or another musician. So Guild added a switch to make phase allignment easier with the beige RTV.
    Naturally the front grill cloth was changed. Typically the black RTV front silver "fish scale" cloth looks dull and faded, However when new they were beautiful bright shinny silver. I once had a black Thunder 1 with stock cover and its grill was like new, beautiful.

    M

  3. #33
    Super Moderator Default's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuuska View Post
    Hello

    Then there is one more aspect that makes difference when driving amp near full tilt.

    Does it have tube- or solid state rectifier? Tube rectifier is acting a bit like compressor at full power. I do not play like that personally, so other people can explain that better.
    It has a 6ca7 rectifier, iirc. That is much more like a gz34 than a 5y3.also, the filtering is double that of a Princeton, so there will be less sag.
    Last edited by Default; 11-02-2019 at 01:30 AM.
    "Steve, you are a man of many goats."~ capnjuan

    "Alternatively, you could just go the ultra-relic route with it. Basically go for a look that says the amp was on fire and they put it out using belt sanders."
    (amps - I need a "99" & "50")

  4. #34
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    Guild redesigned the amp because it simply wasn't roadworthy.
    "Steve, you are a man of many goats."~ capnjuan

    "Alternatively, you could just go the ultra-relic route with it. Basically go for a look that says the amp was on fire and they put it out using belt sanders."
    (amps - I need a "99" & "50")

  5. #35
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilded View Post
    He had no specific reply, but did opine that the Super and it's speakers were working harder than the JBLs and that's what made the difference.He said that he has always liked the sound he could get with one speaker humming away, rather than 4 speakers loafing.

    gilded
    Sounds like a confirmation of what Nuuska and I were suspecting, that it was how the speaker was being driven and not some sort of distortion caused by the basket.
    "Carry on!"
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by adorshki View Post
    Sounds like a confirmation of what Nuuska and I were suspecting, that it was how the speaker was being driven and not some sort of distortion caused by the basket.
    I dunno about that, amigo. If the whole amp is jumping and shaking, I could see the speakers joining in the fun!

    Remember, no degree, might as well be a Flat Earther!
    Quote Originally Posted by fronobulax View Post

    And I like Harry's approach.
    '66 Starfire I SB bass, '67 Mark IV pear wood, '68 F-112, '75 Mark 4 P padauk,
    '66 Thunderbird amp, '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp and, yet another '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp!

  7. #37
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilded View Post
    I dunno about that, amigo. If the whole amp is jumping and shaking, I could see the speakers joining in the fun!
    What, you haven't heard of bolting 'em down yet?
    Last edited by adorshki; 11-01-2019 at 06:41 PM.
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  8. #38
    They're nuts and bolted down!!
    Quote Originally Posted by fronobulax View Post

    And I like Harry's approach.
    '66 Starfire I SB bass, '67 Mark IV pear wood, '68 F-112, '75 Mark 4 P padauk,
    '66 Thunderbird amp, '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp and, yet another '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp!

  9. #39
    Re the 'Rubbery Sound' and the search for Why?

    I talked to another friend, a credentialed Electrical Engineer who builds Marshall, Tweed and Black-Face Fender amps for fun. He listened to my botched and bungled postulation of the caste-frame vs stamped-frame theory, then threw in a different wrinkle for our Collection of Great Minds to consider:

    The vintage-spec 4x10" Speaker Baffle Board!


    First, he politely discredited my speaker frame theory. He said, "Grab a stamped-frame speaker and see if you can bend it with your hands." [We both agreed that I wouldn't be able to do any bending]

    He then said, "Look, early Fender amps had relatively thin laminate-wood baffles. The Fender 4x10" combos like the Tweed Bassman and the Brown-Face Concert have those baffles and the combination of a relatively flimsy board and 4 speakers move around a lot more than the same baffle with one or two 10", 12" or 15" speakers of the same thickness."

    "As well, when the four speakers get going, lots of interesting resonances are happening while that baffle board is moving all over the place." [which in turn allows guitar players to make some interesting sounds]

    I asked about him about the voice coil contorting and he said, 'Lots of things are happening; maybe the voice coil, maybe cone cry, but a lot of it is the relatively thin, 4x10" baffle boards, jumping all over the place."

    I then said, 'So it's the voice coil and cone cry together?'

    His Reply? 'No, that's not all of it.' Then he gave me an example:

    "Suppose you and I are holding on to different ends of a string that is stretched out between us. You keep your end fixed in place and I move/shake/jump-rope my end of the string around. You'll be able to see the movement of the string, right?" [I agreed]

    "Okay, now let's suppose that we are both moving our respective ends of the string around at the same time. You'll be able to see that the string is moving around a whole heck of a lot more, yes? [I agreed, again]

    That's what happens, when you have the, uh, 'correctly thin' speaker board! The speakers move, the baffle board moves, everything moves and it changes the sound.

    Finally, he said, "It's not just the thin wooden laminate speaker boards, the 4x10", Super Reverbs have particle board baffles and Super Reverbs can do it, too." He also worked on a fairly new 4x10" Fender DeVille amp recently and he could hear some of the same characteristics.

    Whew, I think I got most of that stuff right!

    gilded
    Quote Originally Posted by fronobulax View Post

    And I like Harry's approach.
    '66 Starfire I SB bass, '67 Mark IV pear wood, '68 F-112, '75 Mark 4 P padauk,
    '66 Thunderbird amp, '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp and, yet another '68 Thunder 1 RVT amp!

  10. #40
    Sorry to shoot a good story down.

    Wavelength of 1kHz is roughly 12 inches - half wave, that is required for full cancellation is 6 inches - 1 inch for 6kHz - 1/2 inch for 12kHz

    12kHz is up there in harmonics area - like 24kHz = 1/8 inches.

    Just try pushing the cabin front panel to see what kind of force it takes to move it 1/8 inches.

    But the cabin resonating because of it's measurements & materials does influence the sound at all levels.

    Dried-out glue joints rattling can easily produce extra noise. Emphasis on NOISE !!!

    Your friend may sincerely believe, that what he hears comes from front-baffle flexing - let's let him . . .


    Voice-coil compression and non-linearity together with cone not being perfectly stiff and therefore bending and flexing are definitely true causes for sound change at near-limit power.

    Also a tube amp near it's full power is far from linear.


    Search goes on . . .
    First good guitar - GUILD Duane Eddy 400 - I was 3rd owner - still regret letting it go 25 years ago - used to have Artist Award and Starfire - no regrets here.
    Present guitars - all bought new - F50R 1975 - F512 1977 - F212CSB 1979 - OM-240CE 2018 - Schecter Startocaster
    Bought secondhand - B30SB fretless - RED Songbird - White Songbird - S-60D - D-125 - Gibson 3/4-size acoustic 1957 - Carmelo Gonzales nylon string - old Levin Lute

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