F-2512 predecessor?

Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Hi,

Was there a GAD equivalent of Guild's current 17" lower bout Westerly F-2512E? I know about the GAD F-1512, that's the slightly smaller-sized body, in rosewood.

Just curious, I played a new maple 2512E and was surprised, really. I know it's laminate sides and back.

What "not vintage" Guild 12-strings had the bigger lower bout body? I have other, older Guild 12-strings including an F212XL from back in the day, but maybe interested in something in a 17" body size that isn't a three-large (or more) price tag. I'm looking at the options. I like the F-2512E, but was never crazy about satin finishes.

Thanks!
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,442
Reaction score
8,956
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
The GAD series had a GAD-F212 and GAD-F212E with the F-40 body shape (16" lower bout) and solid mahogany back and sides as well as the GAD-JF30-12 and GAD-JF30-12E Jumbo body shape with solid maple back and sides. They came in Blonde, Antique Burst or Ice Tea Burst. There was also the GAD-G212 and GAD-G212E with a dreadnought shape.




  • Model Name: GAD-JF3012
  • Category: Guild Acoustic Design
  • Body Style: Jumbo 12-String
  • Top: Solid Sitka Spruce
  • Bracing: Guild Scalloped Spruce
  • Back: Grade AAAA Solid Flame Maple
  • Sides: Grade AAAA Solid Flame Maple
  • Bridge: Ebony
  • Neck: Three-Piece Mahogany/Maple/Mahogany
  • Fretboard: Ebony (12" Radius)
  • Width at Nut: 1-11/16"
  • No. of Frets: 20
  • Scale Length: 25.5"
  • Hardware: Chrome
  • Machine Heads: Grover Mini Rotomatic Die-cast Tuners
  • Finish: High Gloss (Polyurethane)
  • Neck Joint: Dovetail
  • Position Inlay: Ornate Mother-Of-Pearl Position Inlays
  • Strap Button: With Internal Block Reinforcement
  • Side Dot Position Inlays: Abalone
  • Headstock Logo: Mother-of-Pearl
  • Bridge Pins: Ebony with MOP Dots
  • End Pin: Ebony with MOP Dot
  • Nut: Bone
  • Saddle: Bone
  • Binding: Mahogany
  • Pickguard: Tortoise Shell
  • Back Center: Wood Mosaic Inlay
  • Case: Deluxe Hardshell Case
  • Strings: Replace with Guild L1250 Phosphor Bronze
  • Gauges .010 to .049
  • Introduced: 1/2007


Ralf
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
What "not vintage" Guild 12-strings had the bigger lower bout body? I have other, older Guild 12-strings including an F212XL from back in the day, but maybe interested in something in a 17" body size that isn't a three-large (or more) price tag. I'm looking at the options. I like the F-2512E, but was never crazy about satin finishes.

Thanks!

Only know of 3 17" lower bout (US) 12-er models:
F512 (rosewood), F412 (maple), and F212XL (mahogany).
Of those, I had to check older catalogs to verify what MIC 17" models were ever offered.
Found GADJF3012 (flat-backed maple, never offered in US 17" 12-er) in the 2010 catalog:
https://www.gad.net/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Guild-2010-Winter-Catalog.pdf
Pretty darn sure that was the first MIC 12-er offered.
By 2013 they were offering the F1512 (rosewood) but that's showing satin finished neck, too:
https://www.gad.net/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Guild-2013-Catalog.pdf
I believe those're your only choices outside of younger "vintage" US models.
Edit: Spank me for missing that Ralf did mention the GADJF30-12, I didn't read his whole post and thought he was only mentioning the 16" types...
Whoopise, just caught this:
I know about the GAD F-1512, that's the slightly smaller-sized body, in rosewood
Don't think that's correct. The F1512 was simply a model number used by Fender in the GAD series guitars, still a full 17" lower bout***.
Maybe I just misinterpreted the statement about "slightly smaller-sized body".
***Now that I think about it I think it's starting to ring a bell that all the MIC jumbos were actually that 16-5/8" lower bout.
I note it's not spec'd in Ralf's GADJF30-12 spec sheet nor in the 2013 catalog for the GADF1512.
And since the full specs button for the F2512Maple's disabled right now I can't confirm what Cordoba's current spec is.
Are you sure it's a full 17" jumbo?
 
Last edited:

Ardor13

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
45
Reaction score
7
Hi,

Was there a GAD equivalent of Guild's current 17" lower bout Westerly F-2512E? I know about the GAD F-1512, that's the slightly smaller-sized body, in rosewood.

Just curious, I played a new maple 2512E and was surprised, really. I know it's laminate sides and back.

What "not vintage" Guild 12-strings had the bigger lower bout body? I have other, older Guild 12-strings including an F212XL from back in the day, but maybe interested in something in a 17" body size that isn't a three-large (or more) price tag. I'm looking at the options. I like the F-2512E, but was never crazy about satin finishes.

Thanks!

One sidenote, the laminate back and sides is not in itself the mark of a lesser guitar, at least as far as Guilds are concerned. The $4,000 F-512 is also maple laminate back and sides. I have both the maple F-512E and the maple F-2512E. The 2512 doesn't touch the 512, but it's still a nice guitar for the $.

I don't have any info about the predecessor question though.
 

Mark WW

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
660
Reaction score
99
Location
Floriduh
I had the F2512e and I still have the GAD G212 (Dred) and the Dred slayed the F2512e. Much richer and fuller sounding.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
One sidenote, the laminate back and sides is not in itself the mark of a lesser guitar, at least as far as Guilds are concerned. The $4,000 F-512 is also maple laminate back and sides.
I don't think the sides are laminate on those (the original F412 and F50's had solid sides, but I still can't pull the spec sheet on Cordoba's site to confirm solid sides on their build) but the arched backs are laminated by design and necessity, and as you say it's no mark of inferiority.
Traditionally the only place laminated sides were used were in the cutaways (like my F65ce) due to the difficulty of shaping solid wood in the tight curve, shouldn't be an issue with a standard body and would actually increase material cost.
Methinks the negative perception about lamination is a crossover from the poor reputation of laminated tops.

Also think the MIC models use solid sides for the same reason: the cost of the laminating process normally exceeds the cost of plain solid wood.
With arched backs the cost is necessary but also offset by the labor savings in not having to build a braced back.
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,442
Reaction score
8,956
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
Found GADJF3012 ...in the 2010 catalog...Pretty darn sure that was the first MIC 12-er offered.
No, the 2005 flyer already showed the GAD-G212! That was the first one. The 2006 catalog had the GAD-F212 models and the GAD-JF3012 models added.

The exact lower bout size was not specified in the pricelists and catalogs for the JF-30 or JF-3012. At least I didn't see it. FMIC only gave the scale length and the nut width in the specs as values.

And the GAD-JF30 and GAD-JF3012 had solid flame maple back and sides.

Ralf
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
No, the 2005 flyer already showed the GAD-G212! That was the first one. The 2006 catalog had the GAD-F212 models and the GAD-JF3012 models added.
Thank you, I checked an '07 catalog after finding the '10 and didn't see ANY 12-ers.
Couldn't remember ever seeing of those earlier models, but never really paid attention when they might have been mentioned.
The exact lower bout size was not specified in the pricelists and catalogs for the JF-30 or JF-3012. At least I didn't see it. FMIC only gave the scale length and the nut width in the specs as values.
Yeah checked multiple catalogs for multiple years from Tacoma and New Hartford, never found a lower bout width spec for any for the full-size MIC "jumbos".
Suspect Fender didn't want to acknowledge the 3/8" (almost 1/2") "discrepancy" in size.
Can't see why the maple F2512 would be any different width than the F1512, though.***
EDIT 9/20: See spec updates in post #10 below for possible reasons for different size bouts

And the GAD-JF30 and GAD-JF3012 had solid flame maple back and sides.
Ralf

Right, noted that a little later, as they were flatbacks, another little discrepancy from the US source models.
 
Last edited:

Ardor13

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
45
Reaction score
7
I don't think the sides are laminate on those (the original F412 and F50's had solid sides, but I still can't pull the spec sheet on Cordoba's site to confirm solid sides on their build) but the arched backs are laminated by design and necessity, and as you say it's no mark of inferiority.
Traditionally the only place laminated sides were used were in the cutaways (like my F65ce) due to the difficulty of shaping solid wood in the tight curve, shouldn't be an issue with a standard body and would actually increase material cost.
Methinks the negative perception about lamination is a crossover from the poor reputation of laminated tops.

Also think the MIC models use solid sides for the same reason: the cost of the laminating process normally exceeds the cost of plain solid wood.
With arched backs the cost is necessary but also offset by the labor savings in not having to build a braced back.

Hi, yes I've heard that the older maples (412s) have the solid sides. On the Cordoba site, the only wood they declare as solid for the Maple F-512 is the top, as follows

"features a tight grained solid Sitka spruce top with arched flamed maple back and maple sides"

https://guildguitars.com/g/f-512-maple-in-natural/

Same thing indicated on the "Show Full Specs" link down lower.

I've generally assumed that a lack of declaring "solid" implies laminate. Furthermore, they are explicit in declaring "solid" for the 512 rosewood back and sides.... I'm beginning to think that doing a maple 512 instead of as a maple 412 gives them a partial excuse for doing the laminate side... it would be a spec deviation if they called it a 412. By all means correct me if I'm off track.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
I've generally assumed that a lack of declaring "solid" implies laminate. Furthermore, they are explicit in declaring "solid" for the 512 rosewood back and sides.... I'm beginning to think that doing a maple 512 instead of as a maple 412 gives them a partial excuse for doing the laminate side... it would be a spec deviation if they called it a 412. By all means correct me if I'm off track.
Yes traditionally not specifying "solid" meant laminated but one relied on the spec sheet to verify sides were actually solid in the arched back models.
I think it was just due to the cumbersome wording of "solid sides/laminated arched back" in descriptions of the arched back models.
I thought the same might be applying to Cordoba's descriptions, but when you said you could still see the full specs button I figured I must have a browser problem.
OK, just figured out I can only see the specs on the Guild site under Chrome browser.
Wild.
Yep, no solid spec on sides for F512 Maple
But they also show 17-1/4 lower bout width for all US jumbo variants.
Wassup wit dat?

F2512 shows 17" (no solid sides spec)
F1512 shows 16-5/8" just as acme97 says.
It's head scratcher to me.
Can't understand why they'd use two different sized bucks for the same shape, but I'm going to assume the specs are accurate and that there's something going on with the arched backs that require a larger body buck.***
Only other possibility is that the spec pages are incorrect and it has been known to happen with Cordoba, and prior to their takeover for that matter.
OK I'm willing to believe that all the maple jumbo variants both US and MIC have lam sides, and I'm going to guess that there must be a cost and/or an availability advantage to using laminations for both sides and backs on those.
Again, assuming Guild's posted specs are accurate.
**It also just occurred to me that maybe there's an availability issue for getting flitches of rosewood big enough to achieve a full 17" width lower bout consistently?
 
Last edited:

Ardor13

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
45
Reaction score
7
Yes traditionally not specifying "solid" meant laminated but one relied on the spec sheet to verify sides were actually solid in the arched back models.
I think it was just due to the cumbersome wording of "solid sides/laminated arched back" in descriptions of the arched back models.
I thought the same might be applying to Cordoba's descriptions, but when you said you could still see the full specs button I figured I must have a browser problem.
OK, just figured out I can only see the specs on the Guild site under Chrome browser.
Wild.
Yep, no solid spec on sides for F512 Maple
But they also show 17-1/4 lower bout width for all US jumbo variants.
Wassup wit dat?

F2512 shows 17" (no solid sides spec)
F1512 shows 16-5/8" just as acme97 says.
It's head scratcher to me.
Can't understand why they'd use two different sized bucks for the same shape, but I'm going to assume the specs are accurate and that there's something going on with the arched backs that require a larger body buck.***
Only other possibility is that the spec pages are incorrect and it has been known to happen with Cordoba, and prior to their takeover for that matter.
OK I'm willing to believe that all the maple jumbo variants both US and MIC have lam sides, and I'm going to guess that there must be a cost and/or an availability advantage to using laminations for both sides and backs on those.
Again, assuming Guild's posted specs are accurate.
**It also just occurred to me that maybe there's an availability issue for getting flitches of rosewood big enough to achieve a full 17" width lower bout consistently?

Yeah I wondered if it has anything to do with the new “westerly” series using the old equipment from RI, and maybe China using something else. Might be a manufacturing gear nuance between product lines ?
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Yeah I wondered if it has anything to do with the new “westerly” series using the old equipment from RI,
I wondered about that myself a few years back, but in fact the arched back press from Westerly is in Oxnard.
The press uses 2-piece dies of the appropriate outline for the model to be produced.
Suspect they were a somewhat costly piece(s) that needed special fabrication and replacement due to wear over the course of production.
The new 17-1/4 lower bout spec for US-built jumbos might be a clue that new dies are being used in Oxnard.

Also suspect these dies are not interchangable between different makers' presses, so I don't think those dies went to China, but it's possible, IF:
Perhaps the dies can be modified or have an adapter made to be used in another press.
Yet another possibility is that Fender sold CMG the tooling they had in Mexico to produce the MIM Guild "Arcos" (Arched back) series guitars introduced late in New Hartford era.

...and maybe China using something else. Might be a manufacturing gear nuance between product lines ?

It may have only been poor wording on your part, but just to be crystal clear:
The "Westerly Collection" guitars are also MIC at the same factory that produced the GAD guitars, Grand Reward .
I'm thinking the real issue was tooling available at Grand Reward, the China factory.
I don't think they (GRE) offered any archbacks until the Westerly Series came out, so assumed they had no archback tooling.
It occurs to me that perhaps GRE has multiple fab lines and different tooling is available on different lines.
That could also explain the discrepancies.
:friendly_wink:
 
Last edited:

merlin6666

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
1,173
Reaction score
305
Location
Canada .... brrr
Yet another possibility is that Fender sold CMG the tooling they had in Mexico to produce the MIM Guild "Arcos" (Arched back) series guitars introduced late in New Hartford era.

Indeed I think that the those 200 series archbacks are the evolution of the Arcos. Would be interesting to know if there are any special tools that were shipped from Mexico to China for this. For example I think the former A0-3CE is now an OM240CE. Though I don't know if the Arcos line ever had a 12-string.
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Indeed I think that the those 200 series archbacks are indeed the evolution of the Arcos. Would be interesting to know if there are any special tools that were shipped from Mexico to China for this. For example I think the former A0-3CE is now an OM240CE.
Wouldn't surprise me at all although the models were based on traditional Guild F30 outline in any case, and GRE already had bucks for that outline.
But yeah it is kind of telling that those arched back versions didn't pop up until CMG was the reigns.
All that would be needed would be the press and the dies for the backs.
Although the the body bucks would probably also come in handy and if Fender had no other use for 'em it would make sense to include 'em in the deal.
For sure we know it was a different press because US Guild's press was in use at New Hartford and NH did NOT make the backs for the Arcos guitars.
Though I don't know if the Arcos line ever had a 12-string.
I don't either (don't think so), but the 12-string issue just requires beefing up neckblock (for wider neck) and bracing used on the given 6-string it's derived from.
And maybe other little tweaks. (Bridge).
And I note that to my understanding GRE did not do any design work, they only produced according to plans provided by Fender.
Have no clue if that also applies under CMG.
 

Cougar

Enlightened Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
5,319
Reaction score
3,014
Location
North Idaho
Guild Total
5
....I have other, older Guild 12-strings including an F212XL from back in the day, but maybe interested in something in a 17" body size that isn't a three-large (or more) price tag. I'm looking at the options.

Yeah, I think you'll have a hard time finding a not-too-vintage F412 or F512 for less than 2 grand. I've got to make a guitar brag about my 2002 Corona-built JF30-12 though. Got a good deal on it for less than $1,000, and it's in excellent condition. And it's a fantastic 12-string. The U.S.-built JF30-12 is essentially an F412 (braceless, arched maple back) without some of the bling. Some come with an ebony fretboard, like mine.

I just got a good deal on a 2018 F512, which is an awesome 12-string, but I still love my JF30-12:

jib805.jpg
 

Tom O

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
307
Reaction score
210
Location
East Texas
Guild Total
7
I had the F2512e and I still have the GAD G212 (Dred) and the Dred slayed the F2512e. Much richer and fuller sounding.

I love my GAD G212 as well. It has a laminated reinforcing ring on the inside of the sound hole that is hard to see since the grain is matched to the top.
 

gjmalcyon

Senior Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
4,179
Reaction score
2,417
Location
Gloucester County, NJ
Guild Total
13
Only know of 3 17" lower bout (US) 12-er models:
F512 (rosewood), F412 (maple), and F212XL (mahogany).

There are at least 4 - the JF4-12 is a 17" jumbo. Laminated arched mahogany back, solid mahogany sides. It was produced in miniscule quantities - about 275.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Only know of 3 17" lower bout (US) 12-er models:
F512 (rosewood), F412 (maple), and F212XL (mahogany).There are at least 4 - the JF4-12 is a 17" jumbo. Laminated arched mahogany back, solid mahogany sides. It was produced in miniscule quantities - about 275.
There are at least 4 - the JF4-12 is a 17" jumbo. Laminated arched mahogany back, solid mahogany sides. It was produced in miniscule quantities - about 275.

Yupyupyup, you are correct sir.
Can't blame my error on the relative obscurity because I was in fact aware of the model.
Think I turned off the mental search engine when I had all 3 tonewoods ID'd and forgot there was ever a jumbo 'hog arched back twelver.
Which I will name my new band.
:glee:
 
Top