CITES exemption

AcornHouse

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Yes, but still not passed. Just “close to” being passed. Don’t pop those corks yet.
 

fronobulax

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chazmo

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This is good news. Yes, still premature, but let's hope for the best. The current treaty, as it stands, has been quite troublesome.
 

Brad Little

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Let's hope that "out of committee" in this case fares better than some bills that are approved by committee in Congress and then die a lonesome death on the floor.
 

adorshki

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Send your congressmen some mail!

Assuming that was a joke, but for clarity US congressmen have no sway at the CITES conferences unless they're actually a US delegate to the convention.
"How it Works":
https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/index.php

"When the government of a State or a regional economic integration organization decides that it will be bound by the provisions of CITES, it can 'join' the Convention by making a formal declaration to this effect in writing to the Depositary Government, which is the Government of Switzerland. Once a document containing this declaration has been received by the Depositary, through the diplomatic channel, the Convention enters into force for the State concerned 90 days later (see Article XXII).

A State or regional economic integration organization for which the Convention has entered into force is called a Party to CITES. Currently there are 183 Parties.
A State or regional economic integration organization that is a Party to CITES may withdraw from the Convention at any time by a process of denunciation (see Article XXIV). This has happened only once in the history of the Convention with the United Arab Emirates acceding to the Convention on 21 November 1974 but withdrawing from it on 27 January 1988. However the United Arab Emirates became a Party to the Convention again on 9 May 1990."
SO it's only a "treaty" in the loose sense of member states agreeing to conduct trade in listed species according to the framework of the Convention; thus the reciprocal enforcement clause, but there is no actual treaty as such, with signed contractual obligations.

Also suspect the exemption proposal for rosewoods is pretty much a done deal waiting only formal ratification, otherwise this much time wouldn't already have been spent on it, it likely never would have even made the agenda for this meeting.
The conferences only occur every 2-3 years and they've got much much bigger fish to fry, so to speak.
 

fronobulax

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Send your congressmen some mail!

Assuming that was a joke

I answer rhetorical questions so you are only doing what I have done but if you had observed the context, including the out of committee comment you might have not had the compulsion to answer.

I am having a bad day. I almost locked this thread and then realized one of the offending posts was from another Moderator. 9 times out of 10 that is a sign that I am having a bad day and not a sign that an LTG thread has found the line and crossed it :)
 

dreadnut

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Good call, frono! My boss used to say "Discretion, being the better part of valor..."
 

SFIV1967

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Good news:

"The conference amended an earlier Appendix II listing of rosewoods and related tree species to ensure that small finished items, including musical instruments, parts and accessories, could be carried across borders without the need for CITES permits."

Source: https://www.cites.org/eng/CITES_con...ernational_trade_regime_for_wildlife_28082019

"The stipulation in Appendix II for rosewoods and related tree species has been amended so that finished products including up to a maximum of 10kg of the listed wood, and finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts and finished musical instrument accessories will no longer require a permit for export. The new exemptions go into effect 90 days after today’s adoption.


However, it is important to note that this does not change the situation for Brazilian rosewood which is listed in the most protected Appendix I."

Source: https://www.thestrad.com/news/cites...ents-from-rosewood-permit-system/9382.article

Ralf
 

HeyMikey

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Just in time for the holidays.
 

adorshki

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Good news:

"The conference amended an earlier Appendix II listing of rosewoods and related tree species to ensure that small finished items, including musical instruments, parts and accessories, could be carried across borders without the need for CITES permits."

Source: https://www.cites.org/eng/CITES_con...ernational_trade_regime_for_wildlife_28082019

"The stipulation in Appendix II for rosewoods and related tree species has been amended so that finished products including up to a maximum of 10kg of the listed wood, and finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts and finished musical instrument accessories will no longer require a permit for export. The new exemptions go into effect 90 days after today’s adoption.


However, it is important to note that this does not change the situation for Brazilian rosewood which is listed in the most protected Appendix I."

Source: https://www.thestrad.com/news/cites...ents-from-rosewood-permit-system/9382.article

Ralf

THANK YOU RALF!
It occurred to me recently though, that somehow we keep seeing "Legally Harvested Brazilian" mentioned in new items for sale.
I'm going to have to dig into it to see if it just means it was already "in country" (whichever country that might be) when it became listed on Appendix I and is thus "Pre-Cites" for purposes of domestic sales in a given country.
But it appears that all the provisions we discussed a few weeks back that make it impossible to ship internationally under any circumstances remain in place.
 

SFIV1967

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But it appears that all the provisions we discussed a few weeks back that make it impossible to ship internationally under any circumstances remain in place.
Unfortunatelly that seems to be the case...So I still can't buy an old Guild with Brazilian rosewood fingerboard or Brazilian rosewood bridge in the US and take it to Europe anymore...Means basically anything before the mid 60ies / end 70ies with any tiny amount of Braz on it is not sellable abroad. (Also means that little Martin Tiple I wanted to buy is still out of reach to me.)
Ralf
 

adorshki

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Unfortunatelly that seems to be the case...So I still can't buy an old Guild with Brazilian rosewood fingerboard or Brazilian rosewood bridge in the US and take it to Europe anymore...Means basically anything before the mid 60ies / end 70ies with any tiny amount of Braz on it is not sellable abroad. (Also means that little Martin Tiple I wanted to buy is still out of reach to me.)
Ralf
Yeah, the "gotcha" still seems to be you can't get an export cert covering a commercial transaction (like a private sale) due to appendix I status; and you can't get a personal carry exemption for anything on Appendix I, either.
Regardless of when it was made.
(PS, my sympathies)
 

steve488

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According to the Larrivee website as of 28 November 2019 Indian Rosewood in finished musical instruments and parts will be removed from the controlled status. Brazilian Rosewood will remain restricted......
 

chazmo

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Technically, I suppose that makes sense, but practically I think it'll be nearly impossible to enforce the Brazilian restriction ... for people carrying musical instruments that is with Brazilian in them. For manufacturers of new instruments, I think the musical instrument biz is sensitive enough to this issue that nothing will change on that front. I.e., builders will not be trying to export Braz. I'm sure with rare exception. Anyway, this is surely good news for folks who love rosewood instruments and like to travel!

Wasn't some form of mahogany also banned in the treaty? Has that been relaxed as well?
 

gilded

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I have a CITES question. A friend just called me up and says he has an old '70s Australian Maton-brand guitar that has Brazilian back and sides.

He wants to ship it back to Australia, but has heard that it is impossible. Is there a way to do that legally??

Thanks, Harry
 

adorshki

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I have a CITES question. A friend just called me up and says he has an old '70s Australian Maton-brand guitar that has Brazilian back and sides.

He wants to ship it back to Australia, but has heard that it is impossible. Is there a way to do that legally??

Thanks, Harry

NO.
He will not be able to obtain an export license of any type for Brazilian, to allow it to cross a US border, even to exit.
Here's the link to the last letter I know of from the US Fish and wildlife Service, the entity which is Tasked with overseeing CITES Compliance in the US, and which would issue your (his) export permit regardless of whether it was a commercial transaction or not:
https://www.fws.gov/international/p...appendix-II-timber-listings-December-2016.pdf
It's a PDF so I can't "cut and paste" but in brief:
For commercial purposes (a sale) , Brazilian is absolutely prohibited from crossing borders due to its "Appendix I" status.
Here's the "Catch 22" for Brazilian I call your attention to question #40 and its answer:
"However, the (personal carry/ 10kg limit) exemption under CITES does not apply to APPENDIX I SPECIMENS.
One needs to remember when interpreting that letter that all the questions and answers are related to the rosewoods listed under Appendix II.
I myself originally thought Brazilian could qualify for a personal exemption carry until I read that caveat recently, when re-visiting the question with Ralf.
An industry-knowledgable local contact of his also confirmed the absence of any legal method of transporting Brazilian across borders of CITES signatory countries.
 

adorshki

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Wasn't some form of mahogany also banned in the treaty? Has that been relaxed as well?
The eternal source of confusion is that CITES is a "One List Covers Everything" Entity.
There are 3 different levels of regulation of trade:
APPENDIX I = Commercial trade in wild-caught specimens of these species is illegal (permitted only in exceptional licensed circumstances) (This is where Brazilian is listed)
APPENDIX II = EXPORT/IMPORT DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED for commercial transactions; this is by far the largest category containing most of the commercially traded species.
Nothing has changed, individuals can hand-carry personal property specimens under 20lbs freely.
This is where the mahoganies (and ebonies) are listed.
Note Honduran Mahogany has been listed since '75 and you can still get it legally, and several rosewoods were already listed here prior to the 2016 blanket listing of the remaining unlisted species.
Appendix III:
WE don't even need to think about for our needs.
 
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dreadnut

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If I wanted to travel internationally with my old D-25M, which has Braz fingerboard and bridge, would I be OK or would I need to fear confiscation? Last time I took it to Mexico was probably 10 years ago.
 
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