D30 intonation

DVX135

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I have a 2001 D30. I recently started using an open D tuning and notice that when I play chords or notes higher up on the neck, it starts sounding out of tune. There is a noticeable shift in pitch between the 12th string harmonic and pressing on the fret for the high E and B strings. The B has the most variation, even noticeable down on 5th fret.

My F40 has a saddle that isn’t straight across for all the strings, and is “notched” for the B. Intonation is spot on. Not sure what the correct identifier is for this type of saddle.

Would this type of saddle work on the D30 and alleviate this problem? If so, what is the part #?

Or is this something that can be adjusted?
 

adorshki

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I have a 2001 D30. I recently started using an open D tuning and notice that when I play chords or notes higher up on the neck, it starts sounding out of tune. There is a noticeable shift in pitch between the 12th string harmonic and pressing on the fret for the high E and B strings. The B has the most variation, even noticeable down on 5th fret.

My F40 has a saddle that isn’t straight across for all the strings, and is “notched” for the B. Intonation is spot on. Not sure what the correct identifier is for this type of saddle.
"Compensated".
Would this type of saddle work on the D30 and alleviate this problem? If so, what is the part #?
Possibly but the problem is more likely to be due to action being too high as Dave mentioned:
Guild's set-up spec at the time was 5.5-6/64ths at 12th fret on bass E and 4.5-5/64ths at 12th fret on treble E.
If it's significantly higher than that then your intonation starts getting out of whack.
Also, saddle profile is supposed to match fingerboard radius. If it's been replaced and is relatively "flat" it may be too high on the treble side, also exaggerating the problem.
Since the problem started when you started using the alternate tuning it's also likely that's the real cause, it's known side effect of alternate tunings: intonation gates a little "wonky"; the instrument's built and set-up to be well-intonated in standard E.
Somebody recently mentioned that the new saddles from Oxnard will fit but I believe somebody else mentioned it's not a guarantee because saddle thickness also changed over time, so need to measure its thickness.
Westerly used 3/32 "IIRC"; but slightly thicker ones may have been used in instruments with under-saddle pickups.
Think a standard '01 D30 got a 3/32" just like my '96 D25.
Guilds typically have very good intonation and except for some early acoustic/electrics didn't get compensated saddles in Westerly, they weren't introduced until Tacoma.
So there's no "original" part number for 'em.
But they're easy enough to get from a variety of sources if you wind up wanting to pursue that angle.
Truth to tell I've considered it for my D25 but just never got around to it.
I actually play it a full step lowered now, too, and there's a very slight intonation issue but I compensate by "sweetening" the tuning.
Brings up another issue:
What kind of strings are you using? Different allays may also respond differently to lowered tensions but I'd put it pretty low down the list.
(I use the stock pb lights. D'A Ej-16's and just remembered:
In Westerly Guild's L350 set were D'A, but actually used an .025 G string, that could have an effect on what happens with the B as well. I still buy a single .025 and sub it into the EJ-16 to exactly duplicate Guild's L350 set of the time, as they're no longer available from Guild)

Or is this something that can be adjusted?
See all the above, let us know if action's too high, you may need to check neck alignment to be sure that's not going out of whack as well, easy to do yourself with a long strsightedge.
:friendly-wink:
 
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DVX135

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Thanks for the great responses. Not sure if it had the same issue in standard tuning, I’ll try it to establish a baseline point of reference. I usually didn’t play chords high on the neck in standard tuning as much, so may have slipped through. Action is a bit high, but I’ll measure and compare to responses.
Although if it’s the action, why so pronounced on the B string and not the others? High E is slightly off, rest of the strings are fine.
 

wileypickett

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Is there any bridge lift, or evidence of the bridge having been reglued?

Are there any cracks between the end of the fretboard extension and the soundhole; i.e.: has the neck block shifted?

Is the top completely flat? No dips around the soundhole, or bellying behind?
 

dapmdave

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Although if it’s the action, why so pronounced on the B string and not the others? High E is slightly off, rest of the strings are fine.

The simple answer is: The E and the B strings are the plain, unwound strings. As such, they have the lowest tension and are the most sensitive to stretching as they are fretted. And the B is the thickest and has the lowest tension of the two.

Note that on (most) electric guitars it's the G string that's the heaviest plain string. And on electric guitar bridges the saddle for the G is furthest back (usually) of the plain strings.

The not so simple answer just makes my head hurt.
 
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Stuball48

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The simple answer is: The E and the B strings are the plain, unwound strings. As such, they have the lowest tension and are the most sensitive to stretching as they are fretted. And the B is the thickest and has the lowest tension of the two.

Note that on (most) electric guitars it's the G string that's the heaviest plain string. And on electric guitar bridges the saddle for the G is furthest back (usually) of the plain strings.

The not so simple answer just makes my head hurt.

What a great explaination! No wonder you get so much praise on this forum.
That answer made the butter melt on my morning biscuit-thanks for making my "muddy mind water" a little clearer.
 

dapmdave

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What a great explaination! No wonder you get so much praise on this forum.
That answer made the butter melt on my morning biscuit-thanks for making my "muddy mind water" a little clearer.

We'll see how much time passes before somebody with more knowledge and better writing skills shows how messed up my answer is.
 

adorshki

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We'll see how much time passes before somebody with more knowledge and better writing skills shows how messed up my answer is.
At the risk of sounding patronizing, "Nope. Ya done good"
The not so simple answer just makes my head hurt.
Right, why I didn't wanna go there myself, about how the 12-tone scale can't be exactly accurately replicated by traditional fret placement techniques?
Which is why intonation is always hgoing to be very slightly off at the 12th fret...and which is why things like fan-fretted necks were evolved to deal with it...
So I said to myself, "First, let's give him the specs to set it up like the factory did and eliminate a structural issue as the cause..."
And for DVX135 let me point out that Dave in his modesty hasn't mentioned that he works at Jacobs Custom Guitars, home of forum member Fixit, one of the most highly respected luthiers here...so Dave knows whereof he speaks, when he does speak...
:friendly_wink:
 

dapmdave

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Who could argue with a guy who has over 26,000 posts?
 

dreadnut

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Man, I learn a lot on this forum! Very informative discussion on this issue.
 

DVX135

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Thanks everyone! This really helps me understand more about my instrument and how to move forward. Looks like I have some homework to do. The guitar seems structurally sound, no obvious problems with the wood. I got it used and seemed to not be played much, at least well taken care of. Again, only issue is high on the fretboard in open tuning. Works great in standard tuning and any playing on the lower half of the neck.
Will report back.
 

stormin1155

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You mentioned that your F40 has a compensated saddle (notched for the B string), and asked if one might help the intonation on your D30. The short answer is, yes it might. You can buy compensated saddles that are designed to address intonation issues for an "average" guitar. A better solution would be to take it to a good tech/luthier who can assess what is going on with your D30 and make adjustments based on the strings you are using, your particular instrument, and your playing style. Part of that might be to make a compensated saddle specifically for your guitar.
 

adorshki

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Thanks everyone! This really helps me understand more about my instrument and how to move forward. Looks like I have some homework to do. The guitar seems structurally sound, no obvious problems with the wood. I got it used and seemed to not be played much, at least well taken care of. Again, only issue is high on the fretboard in open tuning. Works great in standard tuning and any playing on the lower half of the neck.
Will report back.
There you go, then.
Suspect it's just gonna be a simple trick of lowering action slightly by "sanding" the saddle.
Or replacing with a compensated, both of which are cheap and non-worrisome fixes.
I can't recall too many if any D30's that were stressed (like neck angle going out of whack) just by aging, and assuming it wasn't subjected to long periods of too-heavy or over-tightened strings it probably IS in great condition.
A better solution would be to take it to a good tech/luthier who can assess what is going on with your D30 and make adjustments based on the strings you are using, your particular instrument, and your playing style. Part of that might be to make a compensated saddle specifically for your guitar.
Too bad you're not close to Dave, or even here in San Jose CA I could give you a great ref on who to talk to.
Hmmmm....Ann Arbor? Close to Elderly?
Betcha somebody can give ya a tip. RichardP69's in Barton City, Dreadnut's in Grand Rapids.
:friendly_wink:
 
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dapmdave

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Just take it somewhere and have it properly set up. It seems like there'd be somebody around a big college town who's doing that.
 

Nuuska

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Thanks everyone! This really helps me understand more about my instrument and how to move forward. Looks like I have some homework to do. The guitar seems structurally sound, no obvious problems with the wood. I got it used and seemed to not be played much, at least well taken care of. Again, only issue is high on the fretboard in open tuning. Works great in standard tuning and any playing on the lower half of the neck.
Will report back.


Hello from Finland

Since I, too play with standard and open tunings - there should be no difference with intonation between tunings - as long you stay within few semitones. I have no problems even when tuning two full steps down.

So culprits might be many

- guitar geometry - string gauge and/or height, saddle shape etc - since you seem to have no problems round 5 first frets it is safe to assume nut is fine.
- your fretting technique - some folks press strings harder than others - thus causing pitch to be sharp - therefore it'd be most recommendable to learn to adjust your instrument to match your personal playing style.

So - if there is any saddle left to shave and perhaps augment the shape of the ridge - that's where I would start.


OR - if you feel insecure about tackling it yourself - take Dapmdaves advice and bring to a GOOD luthier.
 
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DVX135

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I have a guy who’s worked on my other instruments who is excellent. Taking it there next week. All this helps me better understand and learn.
 
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