Dysfunctional Design

DThomasC

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
187
Location
Finger Lakes, New York, USA
I think Apple has as many lawyers as engineers. I don't doubt that their credit card is delicate, but I would be surprised if a big part of the warning isn't just asscovering on their part.

I've tried dealing with them as a vendor/contractor. Before, I was mostly indifferent to iStuff. But after trying to deal with them on a professional level, I will never buy anything made by them.
 

jcwu

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
2,958
Reaction score
37
Location
San Jose, CA
But after trying to deal with them on a professional level, I will never buy anything made by them.

Without getting political :biggrin-new: I'd love to hear what issues you ran into with them.

My beef with Apple is their closed ecosystem, especially with iMessage, which sets up groups that's incompatible with non-Apple users. Talk about breaking text messaging protocols.
 

DThomasC

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
187
Location
Finger Lakes, New York, USA
Without getting political :biggrin-new: I'd love to hear what issues you ran into with them.

In general, they bulldoze vendors in ways that no other customer would ever consider. Over the years I've contributed to multiple military contracts. No surprise that the red tape and regulations are mind boggling when they it comes to working with them, but they don't come close to Apple in terms of the hoops that they make you jump through. Apple has the attitude that they can demand anything and get it because they're Apple.

At one point they asked us about developing a certain component (I won't give details.) After researching the problem, making engineering prototypes, developing associated processes, and verifying with a large alpha run (at our own expense) we reported what we could make, what performance we could promise, and what it would cost. Any other customer would say yes or no, maybe negotiate a little on price (not my department), possibly ask for clarification about technical issues... All with an appropriate degree of professional respect. Not Apple. They responded with a month long series of phone conferences and emails demanding justification for the pricing, performance limitations, etc. Basically, they behaved as if they were privileged upper-class hounding lower class laborers. They came to us requesting a component that they could not develop themselves, but they still acted as though they held all the power. They do it because they can. Most vendors put their tails between their legs and supplicate to the alpha dog.

On another long-term project they demanded that we purchase an additional network server system entirely dedicated to just that project with restricted access (at our own expense of course.) Even US military ITAR restrictions aren't that demanding. But, Apple has the attitude that they can demand whatever suits their fancy, and expects to receive it because they're Apple.

Being a consumer in a capitalistic society gives me the power to spend my money anywhere I want; to support economically any organization that I choose to and likewise not support any that I choose not to. I choose to not support Apple.
 

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
Being a consumer in a capitalistic society gives me the power to spend my money anywhere I want; to support economically any organization that I choose to and likewise not support any that I choose not to. I choose to not support Apple.

Yeah, what he said.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
They came to us requesting a component that they could not develop themselves, but they still acted as though they held all the power. They do it because they can. Most vendors put their tails between their legs and supplicate to the alpha dog.
DT, respectfully, is this not the way of business since time immemorial?
Do large volume customers not dangle the prize of their business before potential vendors?
Do the potential vendors not have the freedom of choice as to whether to bid for the business? (Assuming they will still survive on their current business model)
OK granted there are degrees of professional courtesy in all business dealings and I actually don't dispute your perception, and even have an explanation (not that it forgives your complaints):
Corporate Culture
NOT defending Apple here but simply bringing out how I think it happened:
Recall Apple was founded by 2 guys putting together kits in a garage literally on a mission to change the world.
Through thick and thin and dedicated to a highly focused vision they built their company.
WHO did they hire?
People who shared their passion and vision.
People who ate, slept, worked and played at "the company".
As success was finally enjoyed, a subliminal feeling of entitlement kicks in, of "us against the world" and certainty that vindication will always occur.
Twenty years in you get the attitude you experienced in you vendor relationship.
And not just Apple but any number of Silicon Valley startups based on the same corporate culture model.
We talked about myth in another thread and Apple's a prime example of its corporate culture being based on the myth of their superiority to all other forms of computing.
Truth to tell when I was selling computers I started out as an MSDOS loyalist because I perceived the precision of the operating system: only the tasks that were commanded to be performed were performed, but the Apple OS performed its entire task cycle continuously, in loose terms.
I perceived inefficiency.
Then one day I had a revelation:
PC's should be as easy to use as driving a car which is already a complicated enough task.
That's when I realized the underlying strength of their graphic user interface.
But when I had to attend training classes on the MacII, required of vendors, I realized these guys were already a bit too self-assured and evangelistic in their attitudes.
SO always had that in the back of my mind about 'em.
Say, purely out of idle curiosity, you wouldn't have happened to have worked at Motorola, did you? (Or were you the guy who worked at a major aerospace outfit and I've forgotten?)
Back when I was selling chips to local manufacturers I always admired their ethics in delivering product when promised at the price promised, in a time of severe industry backlogs and shortages when other local chip makers would simply stiff customers with older orders on the books and ship product to newer customers who booked at higher prices.
There was a time when Apple was experiencing hard times in the 00's I used to say:
"Motorola will never let 'em die", because the relationship was too symbiotic.
Which also leads back to that issue of freedom of choice:
Your company DID accede to Apple's demands, so somebody with decision-making authority obviously decided the potential rewards made them worth acceding to.
Not that it forgives Apple's imperious corporate culture.
:friendly_wink:

PS I do have to admit their OS's resistance to viruses/hacking is admirable.
 
Last edited:

DThomasC

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
187
Location
Finger Lakes, New York, USA
They came to us requesting a component that they could not develop themselves, but they still acted as though they held all the power. They do it because they can. Most vendors put their tails between their legs and supplicate to the alpha dog.

DT, respectfully, is this not the way of business since time immemorial?

Certainly it's true that in any situation where people can behave like a-holes, some of them will.

I've dealt directly with plenty of large companies. Not all as large as Apple, but plenty with carrots big enough to make people like me fat. There are often legal hoops that must be jumped through, and getting large contracts approved can require a lot of time and red tape, but once you get to the team of people that you'll actually be collaborating with, things are very different. Individuals are either decent or not. Likewise, company culture is one of either being decent to the organizations you're working with, or not. The engineers and project managers at Microsoft are a joy to work with. That's ironic considering those Apple commercials of old with Justin Long playing the part of the cool, hip, "it's all good" Apple guy, contrasted against a stodgy, conservative, stick-in-the-mud Microsoft guy.

Visiting a Microsoft campus is like visiting a resort. There's a large push towards employee wellness, and that's extended to vendors and visitors. (It could be argued that it's nothing but a cold strategy to boost productivity.) Visiting an Apple campus is like visiting a military base minus the armed soldiers. (There is, however, visible security.) But yeah, they're free to do things however they want. Everyone is. And I'm free to be candid in my reviews of them.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
The engineers and project managers at Microsoft are a joy to work with. That's ironic considering those Apple commercials of old with Justin Long playing the part of the cool, hip, "it's all good" Apple guy, contrasted against a stodgy, conservative, stick-in-the-mud Microsoft guy.
Yep, and as occurred to me one day when it appeared to the casual observer that the battle between MacOS and MSDOS was being fought by 2 completely different entities, who was laughing all the way to the bank?
Bill Gates.
Visiting an Apple campus is like visiting a military base minus the armed soldiers. (There is, however, visible security.)
This is still true to the point that the security at Apple Park challenges visitors well outside their area of legal jurisdiction, on the public roadway.
NOT COOL.
 
Last edited:
Top