A D25 question

Tico

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Are all 1970s arched-back Guild D25s laminated, or are some of those backs solid hog?
 

beecee

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Pre 74 I think was the cutoff date. But this is only halfway through first cup of coffee at work.

See Guildedagain's post on the Cherry D-25 a few lines down on this section. Hans advised that his was a 73
 

Guildedagain

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I might have already become somewhat knowledgable on this subject ;)

This is a cut n paste, maybe somebody from this forum wrote it, not sure where I got it.

Here is the Guild D-25 timeline, to the best of my knowledge:

1968-72: All mahogany, with a flat, braced back (essentially an all-mahogany version of the D-35). They have a sweet, bright tone.

1972-74: A transitional period, during which some D-25's were all mahogany flatbacks, some were all-mahogany archbacks, and during the latter part of this era, stained spruce replaced mahogany on the top.

1975 and later: Spruce top, archback mahogany. Many tops stained to appear as if still mahogany. These are big-sounding dreadnoughts with lots of volume and sustain.

More D25 wisdom, from AD;

'73 is the year with the greatest number of sightings and reports around here.
If the archback isn't part of your requirements,*all*flat backed D25's got 'hog tops.
In counterpoint the overwhelming majority of D25's built had the spruce top/arched back configuration:
'Hog top/flatback from '68 to 74 approx. (there was overlap of types in the transition period)
'Hog top archback from '72 to '74 approx. (even know of one oddball from*'76)
Spruce top/archback from*'74 approx to '01

And more from the www...

Mahogany is the most stable of all guitar woods - That's why it is the primary wood for guitar necks - It's ability to transmit the string vibrations up to the body and resistance to twisting under tension is hard to beat - It has the best weight to stiffness ratio

Mahogany is a much lighter wood (weight wise) than most any other guitar wood - As a wood for back and sides it produces a very fundamental tone as compared to say rosewood which is a very dense heavy wood and adds "dark coloration" - The usual description is Mahogany is wood like tone

Sitka tops pair well with most back woods / Hog only seems to work with Hog - Sitka tops have a warm tone with sustain and more overtone enhancements / Hog tops will be drier ... almost crisp and a lot quicker ..... some say more articulate*

Some folks disappointment with Hog guitars as "dead sounding" are from playing guitars made by the bulk builders who use the same building specs for hog guitars as everyother guitar they make - The bulk builders overbuild the whole guitar and it can't vibrate properly

A lot depends on the builders bracing choices - A good luthier can take advantage of the basic strength of Mahogany and use a thinner top with scalloped braces that pushes a lot of air and coaxes some terrific tones out of a box - Santa Cruz hogs seem to have a very good reputation*

Mahogany guitars are absolutely the lightest guitars you'll ever hold - If you ever pick one up that feels heavy odds are it will be dead as a door nail ... if you pick up one that is light as a feather you'll be in for a treat - That's a simple test

When Mahogany is used as top wood some amazing things happen to a guitar's tone but the sound is not for everyone ...... find a good one and take her for a spin
 
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D30Man

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To my understanding if it arches its lam.. Of course the sides could be solid..
 

Guildedagain

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Yes, an arched back on a Guild is lam, although I'm not an expert. On other guitars, maybe even Jazz Guilds from the 50's, archtops and backs would be handcarved, like pre war Epis, and many others.

I think sides are solid across all variations of the D25?
 

adorshki

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Are all 1970s arched-back Guild D25s laminated, or are some of those backs solid hog?
"Never say never" with Guild but I've never heard of any of the arched backs being other than laminated.
The reason for the lamination would tend to would tend to work against the possibility of being solid as well:
A: Laminating in cross-grained plies creates a stronger material than any similar thickness of unlaminated wood could be.
B: Solid sheets are harder to form than laminates, in the steam press dies used to press those backs.
Infrequently cited details:
C: The center sheet of the laminates was generally something softer and less expensive like larch.
D:The layers were glued-up and steam pressed by Guild, beginning at some time in Westerly at least.
The steam press still in use a Oxnard today was acquired during Westerly era but I'm embarrassed to admit I can't recall if it was the '70's or '80's, now, pretty sure it was '70's.
Not sure if they had their own steam press prior to that, I always just assumed they did.
The tonewood sheets themselves were acquired as furniture veneer from a company that made it.
The sheets were sliced off of a single block with the result that consecutive sheets had almost identical grain patterns.
Guild's standard practice was to take advantage of that and use consecutive sheets and match the grain of the outer layers of the lamination which resulted in the appearance of a solid sheet.
This still fools folks new to the brand to the point that a few years back one member who'd just acquired an F65ce (arched maple back) insisted the back had to be solid because of grain matching on the inside and outside, even refused to believe otherwise when the reason was explained to him.
If you heard somewhere that the arched backs were solid, that may be why.
I myself didn't realize it until after owning my D25 for a while, and noticing one night that a very distinctive peak in the grain pointed toward the headstock on the outside and the endpin on the inside, but quite obviously the same grain pattern.
Being a novice to the brand at the time I hadn't realized the back was laminated but then the light went on because I did know that laminations are stronger by weight than solids.
A couple of years after joining here I mentioned the fact and one of the guys who had worked in Westerly said technically it would have been considered a defect and a QC flunk.
:shocked:
Pre 74 I think was the cutoff date. But this is only halfway through first cup of coffee at work.
Flat backs are always solid.
Arched backs are always lam.
See Guildedagain's post on the Cherry D-25 a few lines down on this section. Hans advised that his was a 73
Right but note he accurately recounts the history with notes that the different types were avialable in overlapping periods, there was no hard and fast "cut-off" date.
At least, not on dealer's shelves although they may have instituted cut-offs on appropriate dates in Westerly, probably (it's an educated guess on my part based on the knowledge that Guild would make batches of models, generally in response to dealer orders, and some of the unsold pieces could sit around for a while before finally being shipped) according more to materials on hand than actual date planning:
"NO more 'hog tops left for D25's? That's it then, we're not gonna make any new ones no matter what the dealers order, it's spruce from here on out. What day is it?"
:friendly_wink:

Yes, an arched back on a Guild is lam, although I'm not an expert. On other guitars, maybe even Jazz Guilds from the 50's, archtops and backs would be handcarved, like pre war Epis, and many others.
I'm nowhere near as well versed in the electrics as the flat-tops but I think that even carved backs were the exception rather than the rule for the Guild archtops,reserved for the top-of-the-liners IIRC.
Also it was known that laminated arched tops were better at retarding feedback so that was intentionally designed in to some models where the feedback risk was seen as greater.
(Also just occurred to me they might stand up to the stress of a Bigsby installation better)
Funny you should mention Epis, did you know yet the company itself was founded with displaced Epiphone employees and even one of their own former executives who partnered up with Dronge?
I think sides are solid across all variations of the D25?
Yes.
Laminated sides very rare on Guild flattops.
Suspect also a needless expense as the material itself is slightly costlier due to the cost to make it.
Only recall it being used on at least the maple and rosewood versions of the DCE series dreads off the top of my head, as the cutaways would have been difficult to form if solid.

***
If Hans wasn't using the term "bodies" loosely, then Bob Weir's Custom F50r's with the oversized headstock had laminated sides:
Post 3 from here:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?185399-Bob-Weir-and-his-Guild-F50/page2
Don't agree with the dating and the sequence of the various events, but nevertheless these guitars are absolutely historically interesting.
The ones I've seen had laminated Brazilian rosewood bodies and 5-pc. laminated maple necks, which made them somewhat odd looking.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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dreadnut

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Thanks guys, I learned something today. I knew that D-25 arch backs were all laminated, but I wasn't sure if the sides were solid or lam. Heck, I've only owned my D-25M for 43 years...
 

beecee

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I misread or misunderstood the OP question. I thought he meant are all 70's arch backed or flat back, the laminate word escaped my attention.....but in my defense I did mention the coffee thing.
 

adorshki

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I misread or misunderstood the OP question. I thought he meant are all 70's arch backed or flat back, the laminate word escaped my attention.....but in my defense I did mention the coffee thing.
:smile:
Yes you did... and '74 as a cut-off date for no more flatbacks is probably accurate, in fact it's what Hans reports as the introduction date for archbacks in "the Book", but he discovered after publication that his source(s)' memory about that was inaccurate and has updated here about that at least a couple of times.
Primarily I wanted to make clear that there were no true hard and fast cut-off dates for the transition, that I know of, as evidenced by different versions being made in the same year.
 

D30Man

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Thanks guys, I learned something today. I knew that D-25 arch backs were all laminated, but I wasn't sure if the sides were solid or lam. Heck, I've only owned my D-25M for 43 years...

Dread if you ever decide to sell the D25 pm me.. I'm sure you're not planning to, but if I by some miracle you do, I may be your guy. It is my birth year..
 
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