Question about String Spacing on Guild 12 Strings

Ardor13

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Hello,

My Question:

Do all Guild 12 strings have the same string-spacing (from the First E string to the 12th E string)? If some Guild 12 strings have narrower string spacing, could you please recommend Guild model numbers to check out? I usually finger-pick over the last fret, where the neck ends, so it's helpful to know if the difference in spacing at this point on the guitar will vary, depending on scale-length, nut width, and string spacing.


Problem I am trying to Solve:

I tried playing a Guild 2512 in Standard tuning, and it was not bad. However I find that my personal playing style is not compatible with the string-spacing on the 2512. I find that I'm having to "reach" alot for strings that normally I can play effortlessly, quickly, and fluidly on my non-guild 12 string that I need to replace. Let me clarify that by "string spacing", I mean the distance between the first E string and the 12th E string. What I am not referring to is the space between each string of each octave pair. My ideal tone is the Guild F-512, although I've never played one, and I'd love for one to be my main playing guitar, but everyone I've asked tells me that the string spacing on all Guild 12 strings is exactly, or nearly, the same. So I am hesitant to drop serious bucks for a guitar that is not comfortable for me to play. I'd also like to clarify that I don't mind the neck on the 2512, and I rarely have issues with neck shapes. For me it's always about string spacing. The problem is further compounded by the fact that I cannot find any high-end Guild 12s to play in my city. I just have a 2512, which incidentally works well for me as a DADGAD guitar, but not so great for playing my music in standard tuning.

Another option I'm considering is a Taylor 855. Sounds nice, but just doesn't do that "Tears-Go-By" thing that we all love so well. :) Super comfortable to play though.

I appreciate any insights that you kind folks may offer!

Best,
Neil
 
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Dano

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...Let me clarify that by "string spacing", I mean the distance between the first E string and the 12th E string.

I don't know about the upper-class models, but (from my data sample of n == 2), my '76 Guild F112 has an E - to - E spacing of 1.62" at the nut, 2.41" at the bridge and a nut width of 1.79" My '80 F212c has an E-to-E spacing of 1.62" at the nut (same), 2.43" at the bridge, and a nut width of 1.82". These two instruments feel VERY different...

...my (n = 2) cents.

-Dan
 

Ardor13

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interesting. Is your difference in "feeling" between the two guitars related to the perceived difference in string spacing? I wonder if the scale of the guitar affects this. I'm not a master of guitar geometry, but learning. :)
 

AcornHouse

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String spacing can easily be changed by having a new nut installed. What can’t (easily) be changed is the nut width.
First thing you should do is to measure the width of the neck at the nut on both guitars. If they are the same, or close, then all you need to do is have a luthier make you a new nut for the Guild that matches your old guitars nut.
If the Guild’s nut width is much more than your old 12er, then it may be more of an issue of the neck’s width, and changing the string spacing probably won’t help. But, we’d be able to help steer you towards a neck width that’s more comfortable, if you wish.
 

Ardor13

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String spacing can easily be changed by having a new nut installed. What can’t (easily) be changed is the nut width.
First thing you should do is to measure the width of the neck at the nut on both guitars. If they are the same, or close, then all you need to do is have a luthier make you a new nut for the Guild that matches your old guitars nut.
If the Guild’s nut width is much more than your old 12er, then it may be more of an issue of the neck’s width, and changing the string spacing probably won’t help. But, we’d be able to help steer you towards a neck width that’s more comfortable, if you wish.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris, thanks for writing, I don't have problems with the nut width or slots on either guitar. I have no problems with the fretting hand on either guitar. In fact, the Guild has narrower string spacing at the nut, and it would probably be inappropriate to reduce this any further. I suspect the problem is the very wide spacing at the bridge on the Guild, because the strings dramatically fan out on the Guild, whereas my old guitar does not. The result ends up being that the Guild's string spacing for my *playing* hand is 5 mm wider at the last fret on the neck (where I play finger style), than on my old guitar, despite the fact that my old Guitar has a wider string spacing at the nut. I find that it's a stretch for me to play tight rolls and arpeggios with this spacing. I understand the costs for new bridges are prohibitive, and appreciate any help finding a stock Guild with narrower spacing (above the last fret).
 
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Dano

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interesting. Is your difference in "feeling" between the two guitars related to the perceived difference in string spacing? I wonder if the scale of the guitar affects this. I'm not a master of guitar geometry, but learning. :)

I attribute it to neck shape and body size. Both are comfortable. Both are different. Scale-length is the same. I grew up with the F112 (bought it new) so it's geometry is ingrained in my playing I suppose. That said, I can switch to various 6-stringers easily. Ideally you just need to find a way to play a few and see what fits.
 

Ardor13

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I attribute it to neck shape and body size. Both are comfortable. Both are different. Scale-length is the same. I grew up with the F112 (bought it new) so it's geometry is ingrained in my playing I suppose. That said, I can switch to various 6-stringers easily. Ideally you just need to find a way to play a few and see what fits.

Thanks, yes I agree. Unfortunately that will require some travel. I live in a city of 2 million, but 12 strings don't "move fast enough" for most stores to keep nice ones in stock. For me the spacing is the big deal, and got ingrained in the songs I wrote. I don't mind neck shape or body size so much. Still hoping there is some polymath who tracks Guild geometries
 
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adorshki

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interesting. Is your difference in "feeling" between the two guitars related to the perceived difference in string spacing? I wonder if the scale of the guitar affects this. I'm not a master of guitar geometry, but learning. :)
Hi Ardor, welcome aboard!
Note the string spacing on those 2 is virtually identical and I believe all Guild 12's had the same 25-5/8 scale length, can't recall ever hearing of a "shortscale (24-3/4") 12-string.
(OK there are 2 outliers, the F612 is a 26+"and the FS4612ce might be short but is not a true acoustic in the traditional sense)
Good point, though, a "Shortscale" with those spacing specs will probably actually feel even more widely spaced at your preferred picking location.
For your issue:
"I usually finger-pick over the last fret, where the neck ends, so it's helpful to know if the difference in spacing at this point on the guitar will vary" ..

AS you mentioned, you're correct, the critical spacing needs to be addressed at the bridge, that'll have more influence on making the strings feel more closely spaced than the nut.
Can't recall ever seeing specs for bridge pin spacing on 12's but hopefully some folks'll chime in

Otherwise you may want to examine your technique to see if a slight modification compensates for the perceived difficulty.
But I'm sympathetic, I can't live with a 1-3/4 nut, they're just too far apart for me all the way up and down the neck.
A buddy had me try his Larivee with a1-3/4 nut on day and it was noticeably easier than other 1-3/4 nuts I'd tried, then I realized, for my picking hand at least, the bridge pin spacing was tighter.
Good luck!
It just occurred to me, I myself play right over the fretboard extension a lot (It's a sweet spot for warm woody tone).
Would this be a viable technique adjustment for you?
For example if you actually use fingerpicks then yeah that's probably not gonna be a viable location.
 
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Ardor13

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Hi Ardor, welcome aboard!
Note the string spacing on those 2 is virtually identical and I believe all Guild 12's had the same 25-5/8 scale length, can't recall ever hearing of a "shortscale (24-3/4") 12-string.
(OK there are 2 outliers, the F612 is a 26+"and the FS4612ce might be short but is not a true acoustic in the traditional sense)
Good point, though, a "Shortscale" with those spacing specs will probably actually feel even more widely spaced at your preferred picking location.
For your issue:
"I usually finger-pick over the last fret, where the neck ends, so it's helpful to know if the difference in spacing at this point on the guitar will vary" ..

AS you mentioned, you're correct, the critical spacing needs to be addressed at the bridge, that'll have more influence on making the strings feel more closely spaced than the nut.
Can't recall ever seeing specs for bridge pin spacing on 12's but hopefully some folks'll chime in

Otherwise you may want to examine your technique to see if a slight modification compensates for the perceived difficulty.
But I'm sympathetic, I can't live with a 1-3/4 nut, they're just too far apart for me all the way up and down the neck.
A buddy had me try his Larivee with a1-3/4 nut on day and it was noticeably easier than other 1-3/4 nuts I'd tried, then I realized, for my picking hand at least, the bridge pin spacing was tighter.
Good luck!
It just occurred to me, I myself play right over the fretboard extension a lot (It's a sweet spot for warm woody tone).
Would this be a viable technique adjustment for you?
For example if you actually use fingerpicks then yeah that's probably not gonna be a viable location.


Hey Al, thanks so much for the response. That's interesting to hear about the F-612... Makes sense that I've never heard of them... according to an expired Reverb posting, there are only 8-12 known to exist, and they sound like a choir of Seraphim. Of course my ideal guitar would have to be rare and mystical. That said, I wonder if the 26+ scale length would fix my problem, or who knows, maybe they scaled the bridge pin spacing up as well.

Yeah that'd be great if some folks could chime in about bridge pin spacing. I keep thinking there has to be some random model where they did things different for a few years (F-612 notwithstanding).

As for technique, I do in-fact play just over the fretboard extension, just "above" the soundhole. It's the warmest, and most expressive tonal zone, for my playing style. I've examined my technique, and have tuned up the 2512 to standard several times, just as a sanity check (because I want a 512 so much)... and every time I do, my conclusion is that it would feel like a compromise. Maybe if I played a real 512, I could be persuaded. Thanks again for writing. Neil
 

adorshki

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Yeah that'd be great if some folks could chime in about bridge pin spacing. I keep thinking there has to be some random model where they did things different for a few years (F-612 notwithstanding).
You got my curiosity up and I see the current US F512 has 60mm bridge pin spacing and the F2512 shows 61mm spacing, so suspect a new F512 isn't going to be the answer (unless the tone tells you you'll just have to develop new technique. I had to do it to finally bond with my F65ce because I lost my favorite pinky anchor point right below the fretboard due to its cutaway)
I got a suspicion that observation that all the pin spacings were identical or at least very very close may turn out to be accurate.
It may be quicker to ask our guru Hans Moust if he knows of a model that used a less than 60mm bridge pin spacing.
He's the guy we look to for the ultimate informed accurate info on that kind of stuff.
While nut widths were subject to tolerance I'm pretty darn sure the bridge pin holes were drilled with a template for ultimate consistency and precision and will be virtually identical in a given model and likely even in a whole class like 12-strings.
But I've had such confident statements blown out of the water before, LOL!
Hans can be contacted through his email here or at:
http://www.guitarchives.nl/guitarsgalore/
There're actually not a whole lot of specific models and not much spec variation between different periods between 'em (judging by the almost universal 1-13/16 nut width), but I guess it's possible one of the 16" lower bout GA-bodied models (F212 and 312) might be the most likely candidates.
The F312 was rosewood bodied (212 was mahogany), but not too commonly seen for sale.
There was also a rosewood dreadnought G312 but again fairly uncommon.
 

Guildedagain

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I bought a couple pre slotted 12 st bone nuts on feeBay, and the spacings varied.

One is 1 19/32" and the other 1 21/32" with the same outside spacing of 1 29/32", to be trimmed to suit.
 

Tom O

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DD-12MCE nut 1 13/16 strings 1 5/8 Saddle string spacing 2.548 scale 25.25 in. but only ~7 were made based on highest serial number seen on Reverb.
GAD G212 nut 1 7/8 strings 1.598 Saddle string spacing 2.268 scale 25 5/8 in.
Some Gibson B45-12s had a 2 in nut but sound varies between them. Tom
 

adorshki

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GAD G212 nut 1 7/8 strings 1.598 Saddle string spacing 2.268 scale 25 5/8 in.
If that's accurate that's the direction he wants to go in, all the other GAD pin spacing specs I see are 2-3/8=2.375
Gents, Ardor needs narrower string spread at the bridge/saddle, he's ok with the normal 1-13/16 nuts.
 

Ardor13

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You got my curiosity up and I see the current US F512 has 60mm bridge pin spacing and the F2512 shows 61mm spacing, so suspect a new F512 isn't going to be the answer (unless the tone tells you you'll just have to develop new technique. I had to do it to finally bond with my F65ce because I lost my favorite pinky anchor point right below the fretboard due to its cutaway)
I got a suspicion that observation that all the pin spacings were identical or at least very very close may turn out to be accurate.
It may be quicker to ask our guru Hans Moust if he knows of a model that used a less than 60mm bridge pin spacing.
He's the guy we look to for the ultimate informed accurate info on that kind of stuff.
While nut widths were subject to tolerance I'm pretty darn sure the bridge pin holes were drilled with a template for ultimate consistency and precision and will be virtually identical in a given model and likely even in a whole class like 12-strings.
But I've had such confident statements blown out of the water before, LOL!
Hans can be contacted through his email here or at:
http://www.guitarchives.nl/guitarsgalore/
There're actually not a whole lot of specific models and not much spec variation between different periods between 'em (judging by the almost universal 1-13/16 nut width), but I guess it's possible one of the 16" lower bout GA-bodied models (F212 and 312) might be the most likely candidates.
The F312 was rosewood bodied (212 was mahogany), but not too commonly seen for sale.
There was also a rosewood dreadnought G312 but again fairly uncommon.


Thanks again for the feedback, and the recommendation to check with Hans. I will most likely check with him in the near future, if no further discoveries arrive. And I'll be sure to report back. My hope is that he will confidently blow our "confident assumptions" out of the water. I'll also check with him about the Holy Grail, if there's time. :)

N
 

adorshki

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Thanks again for the feedback, and the recommendation to check with Hans. I will most likely check with him in the near future, if no further discoveries arrive. And I'll be sure to report back. My hope is that he will confidently blow our "confident assumptions" out of the water. I'll also check with him about the Holy Grail, if there's time. :)

N

Member TXbumper57 owns Johnathan Edwards' ("Sunshine") F612 and being the stand-up guy he is, may be happy to assist with measurements:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?187020-Finally-Home-F612-NGD!!/page7
:friendly_wink:
 

Ardor13

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You got my curiosity up and I see the current US F512 has 60mm bridge pin spacing and the F2512 shows 61mm spacing, so suspect a new F512 isn't going to be the answer (unless the tone tells you you'll just have to develop new technique. I had to do it to finally bond with my F65ce because I lost my favorite pinky anchor point right below the fretboard due to its cutaway)
I got a suspicion that observation that all the pin spacings were identical or at least very very close may turn out to be accurate.
It may be quicker to ask our guru Hans Moust if he knows of a model that used a less than 60mm bridge pin spacing.
He's the guy we look to for the ultimate informed accurate info on that kind of stuff.
While nut widths were subject to tolerance I'm pretty darn sure the bridge pin holes were drilled with a template for ultimate consistency and precision and will be virtually identical in a given model and likely even in a whole class like 12-strings.
But I've had such confident statements blown out of the water before, LOL!
Hans can be contacted through his email here or at:
http://www.guitarchives.nl/guitarsgalore/
There're actually not a whole lot of specific models and not much spec variation between different periods between 'em (judging by the almost universal 1-13/16 nut width), but I guess it's possible one of the 16" lower bout GA-bodied models (F212 and 312) might be the most likely candidates.
The F312 was rosewood bodied (212 was mahogany), but not too commonly seen for sale.
There was also a rosewood dreadnought G312 but again fairly uncommon.


Hello, I checked in with Hans, and received a prompt and courteous reply. Always great interacting with the Guild community. Here is his response as follows:

Hello Neil,

Thanks for your email. That would be the standard string spacing for
most of Guild's history as far as the 12-string models is concerned.
Apart from a few real early models that were done during the first
half of the '60s, I've never seen anything from a later date with a
narrower spacing; as far as I know no standard 12-string models were
produced like that.
You may want to check if some of the fairly recent Guild 12-strings
that were made in the New Hartford plant were done with a narrower
spacing. I did not actually check that feature when I had a chance to
play some of those; I'm thinking of the Orpheum line in particular.
I believe there are a few members on LTG who have one of these models.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
 

adorshki

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Hello, I checked in with Hans, and received a prompt and courteous reply. Always great interacting with the Guild community. Here is his response as follows:

Hello Neil,

Thanks for your email. That would be the standard string spacing for
most of Guild's history as far as the 12-string models is concerned.
...
You may want to check if some of the fairly recent Guild 12-strings
that were made in the New Hartford plant were done with a narrower
spacing. I did not actually check that feature when I had a chance to
play some of those; I'm thinking of the Orpheum line in particular.
I believe there are a few members on LTG who have one of these models.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust

Thanks Neil, "I feel so vindicated!"
:glee:
Unfortunately the Orpheum line is another low-production series commanding some serious $$, but was very well received by the community here for quality if not price.
One of those'll probably require as much searching ss a '60's F312 would, if not more.
Ruth tell I never paid as much attention to 'em as I have the "regular production" models, but here's a link to one:
https://guildguitars.com/g/slotted-headstock-12-string-mh/
Unfortunately I note there's no bridge-pin spacing spec on it like here is for the Oxnard designed models, but the 24-3/4" scale surprised me, didn't remember hearing that before.
And it's a 'hog body. And a 12-fret. (!)
Don't recall if they ever made a rosewood body, but, oh, here we go:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...!-Happy-Dance-!!-Orpheum-RW-12-String-!/page2
I see TXbumper57 confirms heas (had?) one of the 12's as well, which might enable you to get a "twofer" on measurements along with his F612...:biggrin-new:
Ah, one more hit, I see our own Moderator Chazmo and Ralf (forum handle SFIV1967) both have rosewood versions of the Orpheums, and I suspect both would be more than happy to check the bridge pin spacing.
http://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?187950-Orpheum-12-comparison
But it's beginnig sound like those rosewood versions are even scarcer than the 'hog versions, right up there with the F612 probably, but possibly a little easier to actually buy?
To use the forum's "Private Messaging" system, there's a series of buttons underneath the Forum logo, upper left corner in my browser version (Internet Explorer under Windows):
Forum home/New Posts/Private Messages.
Just hit the Private Messages and the rest is pretty self explanatory.
 
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stormin1155

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Measurements on my G-312 are as follows:
Nut width - 1-7/8"
String spacing at nut - 1-5/8" (outermost strings)
String spacing at 20th fret - 2-5/32"
String spacing at saddle - 2-13/32"
 

adorshki

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Measurements on my G-312 are as follows:
Nut width - 1-7/8"
String spacing at nut - 1-5/8" (outermost strings)
String spacing at 20th fret - 2-5/32"
String spacing at saddle - 2-13/32"

To nail down the build era/location for the OP, that'd be the '70's Westerly G312 you inquired about recently, wondering about the neckset style?
In any case, sounds like it's still right there in the standard spacing for 12's that Hans mentioned to Ardor.
 
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