Oxnard M-20 : buffing it to gloss ?

Hi everybody.
New member here! Greetings to the LTG community.
I recently bought an Oxnard M-20 (regular mahogany, not sunburst).

Great little guitar, very comfortable and sweet tone.

The only thing that bugs me is the satin finish. I feel this guitar deserves some more gloss, both on body and headstock.
And I already see some shinier part on the top where my right arm is rubbing when playing (not as much as what happens with Martin 15 series though).

So, my questions are :
- has anybody tried to buff one of these M-20 to gloss ?
- or do you think it is possible ?
- if yes, what would be the best process ?

I am not looking for a glass like surface. Not at all. More like a moderate gloss like found on vintage guitars.
I know that it works very well on Martin 15 series as they are finished in nitro lacquer and respond well to 1500-2000 grit sandpaper and fine/superfine compound buffing.
However on the Guild the finish is not nitro and I am a bit concerned about how it would respond to the sandpaper/buffing treatment.
Also, I read somewhere that sometimes satin finishes contain some micro-particles that are introduced to ensure the satin aspect. Do you think it is the case on the Guild satin finish ?

Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this topic and maybe try it out myself!

Cheers.
Bellyup

Bellyup said:

....has anybody tried to buff one of these M-20 to gloss ?
- or do you think it is possible ?....

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First off, I don't know. However, I've heard it done on an Epiphone Masterbilt, all of which have satin finish, which I assume is poly, not nitro. I wouldn't touch it with sandpaper! As I recall, it takes a LOT of rubbing with some compound or another. Right now I can't find that discussion on the Epiphone subforum of the Gibson board.

Oh, and welcome to the boards, Bellyup!

Welcome to a great forum

It should be lacquer. I have thought about doing that on my F-50 Standard. I would look at Stew-Mac and try the mildest buffing compound they sell.

Default said:

It should be lacquer.

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NO!!! The finish on the M-20 is a "catalyzed varnish finish"! Remember when Ren Ferguson explained that it is not the first time he worked with such "catalyzed varnish finish", he said he didn't use it since the days of the Flatiron Mandolins in Bozeman/MT 30 years ago! So it's an old type finish indeed! My guess was it could be the same two-part catalyzed coating named "Fullerplast" (Fuller for Fuller O'Brien, the products creator) which Fender used since 1963. Flatiron Mandolins used it as well in the 80ies I read, that is how I came to that idea and Ren mentions Flatiron 30 years ago... A Fullerplast datasheet from 2007 can be seen here: http://portal.gemini-coatings.com/assets/pdf_pds/353-00,353-02,353-50.pdf

I'm just confused as the Guild website shows for those models under "Finish" a "Satin Polyurethane" but under Finish Top, Sides and Back "Satin Varnish". Normally there are multiple types of varnish, so the Guild marketing guys should check what they really use as Ren talked about "catalyzed varnish" which would mean "conversion varnish".

Polyurethane varnish is a more recent type of varnish, originally marketed just for floors. It is made with both alkyd and polyurethane resins (more properly called "uralkyd"), and it is usually made with modified soybean oil so there is relatively little yellowing. Polyurethane varnish is more protective and durable than all the other varnishes except conversion varnish.

Conversion varnish, also called "catalyzed varnish", is a fast-drying finish that comes in two parts: the finish and an acid catalyst you add to the finish just before spraying. The catalyst brings about the cross-linking. Conversion varnish is rarely available in paint stores or home centers. It's usually found only through specialized distributors or directly from manufacturers.

Ralf

That's what I get for posting at work! They are shooting nitro now, aren't they?

"Light satin finish" on the M20 and D20, nitro on the more expensive.

My '11 F-30RCE has a satin neck up to the back of the headstock. Thr body is gloss. The neck, however, is also now "glossy" from playing it!

See this thread - lots of veers, but also about the satin finish:

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...inish-observation&highlight=satin+neck+glossy

walrus

Cougar said:

.... However, I've heard it done on an Epiphone Masterbilt, all of which have satin finish, which I assume is poly, not nitro. I wouldn't touch it with sandpaper! ....

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I did it on the back of a Masterbilt I no longer own. I don't recall the compound I used, one of the Meguiars polishes, suitable for guitars as it has no silicon. It was a lot of work, though, so if you try it be prepared to spend some time.
Brad

Default said:

"Light satin finish" on the M20 and D20, nitro on the more expensive.

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The satin varnish is used on M-20, D-20, M-40, D-40, F-40. The Traditional line models come with Nitro.
Ralf

Ok, cool!

I should think that buffing it out should still work, particularly since the OP's sleeve is starting to do so already.

Brad Little said:

I did it on the back of a Masterbilt I no longer own. I don't recall the compound I used, one of the Meguiars polishes, suitable for guitars as it has no silicon. It was a lot of work, though, so if you try it be prepared to spend some time.
Brad

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Yeah but those are poly, different animal.
More here:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?188931-Finishes/page4&highlight=finishes
That one confirms Ralf's explanation of catalyzed varnish, especially posts #1, #3, and #81.

Default said:

Ok, cool!

I should think that buffing it out should still work, particularly since the OP's sleeve is starting to do so already.

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And I wouldn't even sweat any compound, I think an auto-type buffer at very low speed and pressure should do it, softest pad possible.
What guys would use to buff up their vintage original car pain, that stuff was lot more delicate than a lot folks realize.
Might want to test an out of the way area like back of headstock while adjusting technique.

Brad Little said:

I did it on the back of a Masterbilt I no longer own. I don't recall the compound I used, one of the Meguiars polishes, suitable for guitars as it has no silicon. It was a lot of work, though, so if you try it be prepared to spend some time.
Brad

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Yeah, Brad, I think you're probably talking about Meguiars Heavy Cut Cleaner #4 which is one of their Mirror Glaze products which are Paint Shop Safe and have no silicone. It's designed to be used with a rotary buffer. I used that stuff all the time when I wanted a high gloss finish.

A lot of what you're asking depends on what finish is on there. You can add a deglossing agent to NCL if you don't want shine, but poly and varnish are different things altogether. You have to be careful with poly because it dries in layers and once you go through a layer you have to start all over again. Not knowing if there are any deglossing agents in the finish they used, the trouble will be getting an EVENLY glossy finish. I'd guess at the worst you could just knock off the shine if you're unhappy. Maybe try the Meguiars HCC on a spot on the bottom and see what it gives you. If you like it, keep going. This is what Heavy Cut Cleaner does:

-Provides serious defect removal including heavy swirls, scratches, severe oxidation, alkaline and acid rain etching
-Aggressive abrasive paint cleaner cuts quickly, then reduces to a buffing rouge to minimize swirling
-Buffered abrasive action lubricates the finish to prevent scouring or scratching

Rotary buffers are FAST and you have to be careful because they can do serious damage. Also, that speed if held too long in a spot will cause a LOT of heat and cause more serious damage. Also, mask off all raw wood because that $hit flies everywhere. Being an abrasive, it might mess up the GUILD rooftop logo on the headstock. That could be sprayed with a gloss clear coat without any damage depending on what you use.

Personally, I'd get used to the satin finish, but..... it's your guitar. Good luck!! :encouragement:

davismanLV said:

Rotary buffers are FAST and you have to be careful because they can do serious damage. Also, that speed if held too long in a spot will cause a LOT of heat and cause more serious damage

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Good points all but why I suggested no cutting agent and slow and light pressure,
Remember this is a varnish not poly and he only wants to "lightly" gloss it.
But for Bellyup's info, your woodworking experience and insights should carry more weight than my pretty much complete lack thereof.
(@Bellyup: Tom actually built and restored furniture for many years before falling on hard times and winding up here {LOL!}, that's not a snarky comment, to be clear.)
I'm wondering if there may be something a little less heavy duty and more appropriate to the purpose that I'm just unaware of?
And only suggested it as a labor saving measure in the first place.

Bellyup, since Oxnard started using catalyzed varnish for this model, I don't know if any of us can answer your question. Lacquer can be buffed to gloss, but I don't know about this finish. Try it; get back to us! You also might get some joy if you call the shop and ask.

I wouldn't start with the heavy cut!

FNG said:

I wouldn't start with the heavy cut!

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Absolutely, if anything at all.

chazmo said:

Bellyup, since Oxnard started using catalyzed varnish for this model, I don't know if any of us can answer your question. Lacquer can be buffed to gloss, but I don't know about this finish. Try it; get back to us! You also might get some joy if you call the shop and ask.

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He's already mentioned it's buffed up a bit where his sleeve rests when he plays it.
However I just now fully digested Ralf's post (#6) describing the inconsistency on Guild's site (top being polyurethane).
M20's having been the first guitars out of Oxnard, I suspect Ren's statement was "valid", but who knows if they changed their process since then, it may depend on when it was built.
You're right, calling 'em is a good idea, and we've heard they're relatively easy to get hold of that way, "IIRC".
The OP's comment about the top buffing up does make me think it's gotta be the varnish, though.
I'm pretty sure polyurethane wouldn't buff that easily.
I could be wrong about that but the point still is that I think nothing more than simple buffing'll be needed to get it to where he wants.
It's always been the case with Guild satin finishes that they'll shine up under nothing more than "playing wear" and it sounds like this one at least is no different.

Bellyup said:

So, my questions are :
- has anybody tried to buff one of these M-20 to gloss ?
- or do you think it is possible ?
- if yes, what would be the best process ?

Click to expand...

It has been done by a member here.

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?195132-Polished-the-top

marius said:

It has been done by a member here.

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?195132-Polished-the-top

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Good catch and it is an Oxnard M-20.