Oxnard M-20 : buffing it to gloss ?

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,201
Reaction score
11,829
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
They call it heavy cut..... their words, not mine. It's a polishing compound, that's all, but it's sophisticated because of it's formulation for use with a rotary buffer and it "reduces to a buffing rouge" very quickly. What you're going to get, is gloss. Don't panic at the name. Or do. It's all the same to me.

I like the suggestion above to call the shop in Oxnard and ask if it can be done and how, rather than us guessing.
 

FNG

Enlightened Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
1,516
Location
Planet Earth
Guild Total
596
D-lv,

I looked at the other thread, where you said you use a heavy cut product to polish furniture. Rotary or dual action buffer? What type of pads do you use? I bought a dual action buffer recently, and with the Mequiars synthetic wax that won't stain plastic trim, it sure takes the work out of waxing the ride.

You're right about the Mequiars stuff, in that the tech in the cut compound makes it much safer to use. Way back in the old days, I used to recondition used cars, using GM rubbing compound that came in 5 gallon paint can with a variable speed pneumatic buffer. You could burn the paint off an edge in about a half second if you were not paying attention.
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,201
Reaction score
11,829
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
Hey Effin', I use an old school rotary buffer with a sheepskin-like cover. It's about an 8 inch diameter wheel to let me get at all the spots in tighter spaces. Never used a random orbital buffer, but I wanted one, mostly for the larger projects (like table top or the truck and such) but never got around to buying one. I also have a small vibration sander that has smaller triangle points which are changeable that I pad and cover to use for smaller and super tight spaces. It's meant for sanding, but motion is motion and it's the only thing to get in and around a bridge saddle and the heel and such. You have to be so careful when that big buffer wheel starts moving because if it catches on anything........ look out!!! My old rotary buffer is a variable speed one, tho. That helps a lot with control.

I also bought a set of foam wheels, cylinders, and assorted shapes from Stew-Mac that drop into my cordless drill and with the variable speed on that I can get in some pretty tight spaces. Sometimes, it takes two people in tricky spots...... :encouragement:
 

FNG

Enlightened Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
1,516
Location
Planet Earth
Guild Total
596
Interesting.....I have a GV-52 that had a satin finish, but ended up with some shiny spots from normal playwear. I hand buffed it and it came out ok, maybe I'll finish it with the DA.

We used those big pads on cars, and they could sling compound all over the place. If the suits came down and stood over your shoulder, you could aim the sling at them and they would get the hint.
 

dbirchett

Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
938
Reaction score
90
I have three Larrivee -03 series guitar. These come with a matte finish that has a textured feel to it. It can be a bit noisy as you move your hand on the top. Many years ago, several of us on the Larrivee forum were polishing the -03s using a variety of methods. One, that I ended up using, was the Meguiar's 3-step. We were told that it did not contain silicones which, of course, was wrong. It produced great results and could get nearly as glossy as you wanted based upon how much buffing you wanted to put into it. Here are two of mine. I wasn't concerned about getting a bright gloss and stopped basically after I got rid of the textured finish and put a bit of sheen on them. They remind me of the semi-gloss finish of the Avalon guitars. One thing that I did not expect is the 3-D nature of the finish.

DCP_0775.jpg


The OM is Koa. The cutaway guitar is Tasmanian Blackwood.

If I were to do it again, I would first try Virtuoso guitar polish and see if that got me where I wanted to go.

The braver ones on the Larrivee forum were using 0000 steel wool and got phenomenal results. I was not that brave.
 

cutrofiano

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
207
Reaction score
25
Location
Freiburg / Germany
Why making things complicated?
Any satin surface can more or less easily be polished to gloss.
From any painted finish (very easy) over bead-blasted stainless steel (just a little less easy) to saphire crystal (a bit of work).

Moritz
 
Last edited:

chazmo

Super Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
25,473
Reaction score
7,131
Location
Central Massachusetts
Moritz, what happens if the finish is really thin, like a hand-rubbed varnish. I'd think you'd run the risk of penetrating / stripping the finish.

That said, I imagine nothing durable enough for a guitar would be that way. Just thinking of, say, an old violin.
 

txbumper57

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
58
Location
Texas
Moritz, what happens if the finish is really thin, like a hand-rubbed varnish. I'd think you'd run the risk of penetrating / stripping the finish.

That said, I imagine nothing durable enough for a guitar would be that way. Just thinking of, say, an old violin.

First, I thought they made a point to have a thin "Catylized Varnish" finish on these Guild D20/M20's to let the guitar breathe and vibrate freely. It was one of the selling points they mentioned when they were first introduced. If you do go through the Thin Finish then you risk a chance of contaminating the wood permanently to the point where it may not accept any kind of newly applied finish you would use to repair it.

May be worth risking it on an Import with a Satin Poly Finish or a Laminated wood model but I wouldn't want to do it on a Solid Wood American Made model. Just an Opinion as always.

TX
 

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
484
It is probably safer to start with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #2 Fine Cut Polish. It would be safest to hand polish (and it will probably take a very long time, but the possibility of cut through is minimal), and faster, but slightly less safe would be a Porter Cable 7242XP or the Harbor Freight Dual action polishers (throw the Harbor Freight backing plate and pads away), and fastest and least safe would be a rotary polisher of any type. You must keep the speed down on the machine polishers to minimize heat build up. It is normally followed up with Meguiar's #9 Finishing Glaze. Meguiar's #2 and #9 are used in most of the luthier shops that I know of, and are trusted to not create issues with refinishing nitro.

None of the Meguiar's Mirror Glaze line of paint products have silicones in them. They are available in many car parts stores, but are actually intended for use by body shops for collision and general bodywork purposes. Any silicone in the product would mean paint issues. Some of the consumer grade Meguiar's products MAY have silicones, but the Mirror Glaze line does not, as it isn't really considered consumer grade.
 
Last edited:

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
484
Why making things complicated?
Any satin surface can more or less easily be polished to gloss.
From any painted finish (very easy) over bead-blasted stainless steel (just a little less easy) to saphire crystal (a bit of work).

Moritz

If there is a flattening/matting agent added to the finish when it is sprayed (nitro or poly), there is no way to make it glossy. There may be some slight variation in "mattness" (my term), but it will never have any real glossiness to it.
 
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Thank you all for all these great contributions. This is very helpful. Really impressed by the quality and quantity of your inputs.

Given the thread where an Oxnard m-20 glossed the top, i now tend to believe there is no matting agent in the finish.
But still not 100 % sure, so calling Oxnard is a good recommendation.

Regarding buffing products, I am not sure I can find the Meguiars products you mention (I live in France), so I was considering using the ones from Stewmac. Any opinion against them ?
 

cutrofiano

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
207
Reaction score
25
Location
Freiburg / Germany
@kostask:
If that is your conclusion coming from practical experience, I take it as a fact.
After all that I know, generally satin finish is always achieved by adding matting agent to the finish that results an a micro- uneven surface that causes the light to break instead of reflecting.
If the satin finish, other to this, is achieved by a substance, that simply dulls the entire material, there just is nothing to polish in the sense of making the surface even.
Like aged darkened clear coat that has become dull all the way through.
But that is a matter of color and not satin finish, which, at least in my understanding, means:
What is uneven can mechanically be made even.
Certailnly true: When the finish is very thin, there is a severe risk.

...I already see some shinier part on the top where my right arm is rubbing when playing...

That says it all: It will not be difficult to polish the guitar.
I always use high gloss polishing compound, nothing more abrasive.
 
Last edited:

txbumper57

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
58
Location
Texas
Something else I just remembered was that the early D20/M20's from Oxnard didn't have a pore filler under the finish like most guitars do. That left the guitar with an open pore look that some here did not like. It also means that if you do go through the finish that there is nothing preventing the compound from directly getting into the pores of the wood. Once it is in there I wouldn't think it would be possible to get it all out.

TX
 

cutrofiano

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
207
Reaction score
25
Location
Freiburg / Germany
...It also means that if you do go through the finish that there is nothing preventing the compound from directly getting into the pores of the wood...

Once you have buffed through the finish you are lost anyhow.
No way to fix that without a total re- finish.
Cleanig the pores is the least problem then...
 

txbumper57

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
58
Location
Texas
Once you have buffed through the finish you are lost anyhow.
No way to fix that without a total re- finish.
Cleanig the pores is the least problem then...

Actually it is one of the the biggest issues as a new finish won't cure over something like silicone if it is in the pores of the guitar. It will cause it to continuously bubble up in that spot and not properly cure. Refinishing even just a portion of a guitar is not an issue to match up with the rest as long as you have a clean surface. Once the wood is contaminated with something like silicone you will never be able to get it all out to have a clean surface again.

TX
 

cutrofiano

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
207
Reaction score
25
Location
Freiburg / Germany
Silicone in any paint shop is a killer.

..Refinishing even just a portion of a guitar is not an issue to match up with the rest...

This contradicts to what I have experienced in decades.
May be we have a different understanding of what is "an issue"...
 
Last edited:

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,201
Reaction score
11,829
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
Hey Don, thanks for the photos of the Larrivee's and their finish! Those are beautiful!! And I agree, one of the prettiest finishes ever is on Don's (Kennedy, on this end) Avalon L-32!! What a stellar guitar, too! I did some research and based on the numbering it's the 20th guitar out of the factory after George Lowden's employees marched him out and took over the company, and called it Avalon! Basically, what he got was a Lowden guitar for the price of an Avalon. The woods and craftsmanship are exemplary and with the split saddle, it handles open and lowered tunings better than any other guitar in the house. Anyway, kind of veered off a bit (imagine?) but thanks for the Larrivee photos!! Such nice guitars!! :encouragement:
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,791
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Thank you all for all these great contributions. This is very helpful. Really impressed by the quality and quantity of your inputs.

Given the thread where an Oxnard m-20 glossed the top, i now tend to believe there is no matting agent in the finish.
But still not 100 % sure, so calling Oxnard is a good recommendation.
I agree I don't thing there's a "matting agent".
Yours already shows signs of that, too.
However, you originally mentioned you weren't looking to create a "high" gloss , and I still think a very light touch with no compound will yield the results you're looking for with much less risk of "cutting through" the finish or contaminating the wood.
Essentially all you'll really be doing is smoothing down the un-buffed varnish.
I suspect that's all it really is, anyway, and that leaving it un-buffed was part of the significant labor cost saving needed to offer a good selling price on the model.
Finishing including multiple layers, curing time between them, and buffing, is a BIG cost of time and labor in making High Gloss NCL finishes.
:friendly-wink:
 

cutrofiano

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
207
Reaction score
25
Location
Freiburg / Germany
Finishing including multiple layers, curing time between them, and buffing, is a BIG cost of time and labor in making High Gloss NCL finishes.
:friendly-wink:
...as with PU etc.:
This here is 9 layers (but no filler) with polishing after every layer.
And the finish is so thin that the surface 3-dimensionally depicts all the lines of the spruce top (you can tell on the lit left side with the shadow):

Guild%20F-150R-CE%20fertig%209.JPG


Moritz
 
Top