My G-41 tone

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Hey guys, just a tone question about a guitar that only a few of you have played. It’s kinda rare because it was only made for a few years, and not a big seller! I think it was a guitar that answered a question that no one was asking! LOL! It’s my G-41.

It’s the jumbo-sized dread (17” lower bout, 5” body depth) with the long 26.4 scale, spruce top, mahogany back and sides. Just by its dimensions I figured it would be a boomer! Nope.
It’s plenty loud, but just I just can’t get that warmth and big lush tone I was hoping for.
it’s got TONS of midrange! Really cuts through in acoustic jams and plugged in with the band, but I guess I’m spoiled by my Rosewood back and sides F-50 Rs.

I know that some standard sized dreads can even blow away jumbos in the bass department...but not this one. I’ve used 3 different sets of strings... Martin Sp, D’Addario EJ16, and just last night put on some Eric Clapton sig Martin’s. All PB and all 12-54.

I had the nut and saddle changed to bone, have it set up with .09 relief and 5/64 low E at the 12th fret and 4/64 high E. Straight edge across the length of the fretboard ends right at the top of the bridge base, although the base may have been sanded down a bit by a previous owner, nothing drastic, but it’s thinner that the bridges I have on my jumbos.

I have nothing against normal sized guitars, but I’m tall guy and they just look and feel tiny on me, so I go for the super jumbos. And when I heard about this guitar, I thought YES, a ME-SIZED dread!!! LOL!

So, any ideas how to warm up this big mid-range monster?
 

adorshki

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what about medium gauge strings?

Yep, I think it's even likely that guitar was designed for 'em.
We've even seen an early '80's D46 I think it was, that showed M-450 mediums as the strings, stamped on the front of the owner's manual.
G41 possibly even tailored to Richie Havens' input about voicing, as he was an endorser of that model as you might know.
The thing about flatback dreads, too, they do seem to "focus" more.
The bass on my D40 is more "focused" than on the (arched back) D25, but not truly louder.
And the D25 does have a more jangly top-end according to my GF's cell phone vids.
Another potential is that going to something like vintage bronze or 80/20 instead of phosphor might help, as that guitar would have been designed in an era when pb was just starting to be available***and may have been designed with a different alloy in mind as well.
What about the old Steven Stills/David Crosby shave the braces trick? (Although it may have 'em already, I don't know).
And yeah I might have a problem taking that chance on of those, myself.
Final thought, TXbumper's got one IIRC, might want to shoot him a PM if he doesn't see this.
Hope you don't have to shoot it.
:friendly_wink:

*** D'A brought pb to market in '74 although there's circumstantial evidence Guild may have had access to it prior to that through their close relationship with 'em.
 
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I thought about that, Wood, but it’s already a long scale, so the tension is already increased! Using 12 s on it is like 13 s on a regular guitar. But, still, I might try it and de-tune it to like Eb.
 

davismanLV

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How's the break angle over the saddle? The downward pressure on the saddle is what vibrates and moves the soundboard. I know of people with a shallow break angle who've notice a whole lot of increase in volume with doing mods, up to and including a neck reset, to increase the break angle.

That guitar seems tailor made for you, RR!! Big guy, big guitar. Apparently the reality is far different than expected. Not sure how it's braced either. Scalloped bracing? Might that be something that could help?

Funny thing is, stories of this guitar and people who own them are few. I kinda remember a lot of reactions similar to yours. THINKING it was gonna be a monster, and finding out it's just not. Let's see what others have to say......

p.s.- heh! Al and i were typing at the same time.... again. So shaving braces, and I did mean to suggest as Al did, that 80/20 strings are gonna give you a brighter and possibly louder sound. I'm sure Al's reluctance regarding shaving braces is similar to mine in that, if it doesn't work, or has an unwanted effect, you can't UN-shave them.
 
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Thanks Al, I’ll rattle his cage a little later if he doesn’t see this. Funny though, I stopped in at Norman’s rare guitars a couple of months ago and he had one on the wall, a real beater too...but it sounded great!( Guess that’s why it was a beater! LOL!) I was in a bit of a hurry, and his tech was out, so I couldn’t ask about it. When I went back a few days ago, it was gone and no one quote remembered anything about it. It sounded more like what I was expecting mine to sound like.

Maybe bone isn’t the right material for that particular saddle and nut? Too brash sounding.
 

adorshki

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I thought about that, Wood, but it’s already a long scale, so the tension is already increased! Using 12 s on it is like 13 s on a regular guitar. But, still, I might try it and de-tune it to like Eb.

I actually went down a whole step on my F65ce (16" lower bout shallow body) in an attempt to tone down the maple jangle.
Even went to lower tension strings (silk'n'steel).
It worked well.
It might seem counter-intuitive but you'd be driving the top from a lower frequency to start with, and sustain actually seems louder but a bit shorter duration.
Very little loss of volume but noticeably better bass "presence".

Maybe bone isn’t the right material for that particular saddle and nut? Too brash sounding.
Be surprised if that was the culprit, but Davisman's input was valid too. I just assumed that as a performer you'd already examined such details and had it set up as well as possible including good saddle height.
 
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Thanks Tom, I have very good break angle. And I have had a luthier/tech install the nut and saddle and adjust the truss rod and install the K&K. He’s the best out here in L.A.

Shaving the braces scares me, like Al said, you can’t un-do it if it goes wrong. So I would save that as my very last option and only have a luthier do it.

But short if that I’m open to other options. I guess I’ll try the 13s first... but what mfgr has the warmest sounding strings?
 

Westerly Wood

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I thought about that, Wood, but it’s already a long scale, so the tension is already increased! Using 12 s on it is like 13 s on a regular guitar. But, still, I might try it and de-tune it to like Eb.

i recently put a set of martin SP PB 13s, actually "looser" than the D'Adarrio of the same. very pleasantly surprised as typically i struggle with 013s but i really like them. and this is my Br so a smaller dread vs yours but tuned to pitch. might be worth a shot. they are mellower however than EJ17s. tone wise, not as sparkly.
 

adorshki

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Thanks Tom, I have very good break angle. And I have had a luthier/tech install the nut and saddle and adjust the truss rod and install the K&K. He’s the best out here in L.A.

Shaving the braces scares me, like Al said, you can’t un-do it if it goes wrong. So I would save that as my very last option and only have a luthier do it.

But short if that I’m open to other options. I guess I’ll try the 13s first... but what mfgr has the warmest sounding strings?

Been a loyal D'Addario fan for 22 years and pb IS supposed to have the warmest tone, but I actually went to GHS for the F65ce experiment because they offered a gauge set D'A didn't, in the S'n'S.
Found their site to be highly informative re what to expect from different alloys, tone-wise, as well:
https://www.ghsstrings.com/products?categories=acoustic
Plus, set tension charts!
 

gjmalcyon

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Grab a light and an inspection mirror and see what the bridge plate looks like. Leave it strung so you can see where the ball ends are ending up.
 
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Trying to use my phone to include a pic, just not working!
MH5gWoi
 
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GuildFS4612CE

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Have you looked into a set of baritone strings? A simple experiment easily reversed.
 

txbumper57

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Hey Retro, I sold mine to Rich Cohen here on the forum awhile back when I was going through the expensive puppy/growing up stage of my two Great Danes. I had a bone nut/Saddle/and Ebony Bridge pins on mine. The strings that brought out the crystal clear bass and lower end on it the best to my ears were Elixir Coated Phosphor Bronze Light-HD's which were a 13-53 set. It had great low end at Standard Tuning and even better at Eb tuning. The guitar will handle full on mediums just fine as mine did for over two years without any issues. The full on mediums did make a big difference in tone as well. Once I switched to the Light HD's due to weakness in my left arm from the shoulder I noticed that the type of pick I used as far as size and material had a Huge difference in whether I was getting that rich low end tone out of it. Normally I run a .73mm Nylon Brain pick but it really wasn't doing the trick on the G41. I went up to a .88mm and 1.00mm Nylon Brain Pick (depending on what i was playing) and the guitar really started to come to life again. It also sounded great with a Heavy Plastic pick as well. I can only guess that the .73mm wasn't really driving the Oversized Top on that guitar enough with the lighter strings to get it singing in it's sweet spot. You have to remember that there is a lot of Spruce to get moving on that thing, LOL.

My suggestion is to try the Elixir Coated Phosphor Bronze Light-HD's and maybe a heavier pick to wake her up a bit. See if that does the trick or not. Best of luck man and let me know how it all turns out!

TX
 

wileypickett

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All good suggestions, but keep in mind, too, that bigger doesn't necessarily mean louder.

My F50, for instance, is not as loud as my D50, but there is big a difference in the quality of the sound.

I would certainly experiment, but getting to love this guitar may be a matter of adjusting your expectations as well as your string type.

Good luck!

Glenn
 

txbumper57

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All good suggestions, but keep in mind, too, that bigger doesn't necessarily mean louder.

My F50, for instance, is not as loud as my D50, but there is big a difference in the quality of the sound.

I would certainly experiment, but getting to love this guitar may be a matter of adjusting your expectations as well as your string type.

Good luck!

Glenn

Just a note, My G41 was a Monster in tone and Volume compared to some of my Regular sized Dreads so the potential is definitely there. Granted even 2 guitars of the same model may be considerably different in tone and output but I know that this model can Boom if need be. You here some folks say that their Dread is a Cannon? My G41 was a Howitzer in comparison, LOL.

TX
 
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So here's a pic of where the straight edge meets the bridge...and you can see the string break angle behind the bridge saddle.
I have since replaced the pins with ebony.

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Where the ball ends meet the bridge plate. Fuzzy pic...but you can see some of the braces too. (Couldnt get my hand in there very well to take the pic.

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She's a beauty, with the ebony pins:

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I just happened to have a set of D'Addario EXP Coated 80/20 Bronze 13-56 and put them on! Made a HUGE difference already!
So, tomorrow I will grab some Elixers and some coated PB D'Addarios in the 13-56 gauge. Thanks TX!
I honestly thought the longer scale combined with the heavier strings would cause too much tension on this guitar made in '75, but I guess not! She SINGS!
I will keep a close eye on the action though, just in case!

Thanks guys for all the advice!
 
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