Late 90s d4 with nitro top

dreadnut

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Are you buying or do you already own it?

These were solid Guilds, built in Westerly, RI and patterned after the D-25; arched laminated 'hog back & sides, solid spruce top, nitro finish would be preferable to me.
 

billyrum

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Own one. All the reviews I see are for satin finishes, but this is gloss from factory. Just wondering if anyone knows how many were made. I lived in RI when I bought it fom dealer. He had at least 6 of them around 500 bucks.
 

adorshki

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Own one. All the reviews I see are for satin finishes, but this is gloss from factory.
Just wondering if anyone knows how many were made. I lived in RI when I bought it from dealer. He had at least 6 of them around 500 bucks.
D-4's were introduced with satin finish as one of the cost-cutting measures to make it a "Poor man's D25"; the "Gloss" (as opposed to HG finish) was first announced in Guild Gallery #1 of late '97- spring '98 and was still showing available on the last Westerly price list of '01:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/files/Guild2001.pdf.
ALL the HG finishes on Westerly flattops at the time were NCL; so that's correct, it's nitro**.
I don't know if anybody will ever be able to tell you how many D4's were made let alone the breakdown between Satin/Gloss finishes, because beginning in '95 D25's and D4's used the same s/n sequence:
http://guildguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/history_of_your_guild.pdf
So as far as I can figure there's no way to differentiate 'em simply by s/n, unless they were broken out in the production records.
In that case Hans Moust should know, but he may want to save the info for volume 2 of the Guild Guitar Book.
**this information has been corrected in post #8
 
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bobouz

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D-4's were introduced with satin finish as one of the cost-cutting measures to make it a "Poor man's D25"; the HG finish was first announced in Guild Gallery #1 of late '97- spring '98....

Actually, the D-4 was introduced in 1992 with both the satin & high gloss options.

The D-6 was the same. I have a '92 D-6nt-hg (natural finish-high gloss), essentially turning it into a D-40 (which had just been discontinued).
 

adorshki

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Actually, the D-4 was introduced in 1992 with both the satin & high gloss options.
You sure about that, Bobouz?
I don't recall ever seeing any pre-'97 D4's with a gloss finish, and that Guild Gallery makes it sound like the Gloss finish was new for the D4.
For that matter I already know of at least one error in that Guild Gallery #1, but this blurb about the "New True American D4 Gloss" seems pretty cut and dried, and specifically mentions the D4 being originally built with the hand-rubbed finish
"Designed from the D25, it features a hand-rubbed natural satin finish":
GuildGalleryWinter97-3.jpg

Technically in fact they mention the original D4 was "hand-rubbed" which was supposed to be a more environmentally friendly finish as it avoided spraying, and that the gloss finish was actually applied over the HR finish.
The D-6 was the same. I have a '92 D-6nt-hg (natural finish-high gloss), essentially turning it into a D-40 (which had just been discontinued).
I believe it about the D6, but then it seems appropriate because it is an upscale instrument compared to the D4.
And acknowledging that the s/n records are known to contain errors, are you sure you're not thinking of the D6 becoming the DV6 which shows an HR version introduced in '96, and continuing the s/n sequence where the D6 left off in '95? (In fact, they've got the D6e, the D6HG, and the DV6 all grouped together for '95)
Or possibly the similar evolution of available finishes that occurred with the DV52 and which showed its first HG finish becoming available in '95 as well?
PS
If I coulda found a '92 catalog on line somewhere I woulda checked it out for myself, but still no joy after all these years...
 
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adorshki

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ALL the HG finishes on Westerly flattops at the time were NCL; so that's correct, it's nitro.
And after all that I just found an item I'd forgotten about from 8 years ago, post #20 in this thread:

Those '90s D4Gs are finished with a water based lacquer. Not "Nitro", as the D25s are.
And NOT to ignite that sort of powder keg.
Billy, FYI: Hideglue actually worked at Westerly during Fender's ownership and was a valuable source of info about their methods at the time.
So that would seem to contradict what Guild said in that same Guild Gallery #1 about NCL finishes:
"Unlike many other manufacturers Guild has not made any changes to the finishing of high-gloss acoustics. Guild still finishes its high-gloss acoustics with Nitrocellulose lacquer as it always has".
Perhaps the loophole here is the "Gloss" finish announced for the D4 as opposed to the "High Gloss", as shown available on the DV52 for example.
And I'd swear I've seen D4's in listings with "D4NT-HG" labels from like '98 or '99?
But right now I have the least confidence in that source (my memory)
So now wondering how you determined your D4 is NCL?
Here's an "acid test" for you:
Genuine NCL flouresces a milky green under a blacklight.
I just tested all 3 of mine last weekend after it came up in another thread:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?199377-1997-Starfire-III-Review
 

bobouz

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Al - My info on the existence of a ‘92 D-6nt-hg is solid since I own one! But the D-4 info comes from Gruhn’s 2nd edition, which I’ve long considered one of the more accurate resources available. Gruhn lists the D-4 as being introduced & available in 1992 in a high gloss D-4HG version. He then lists a gloss finish D-4G, available as of 1998 (quite likely the poly finish version!).

In looking again at the way he’s got it listed, it’s possible he is saying the nitro HG version was only available in ‘92, and then discontinued. This would seem more logical, since the D-4 was clearly meant to be their low-buck entry into the world of Guilds.
 

adorshki

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Al - My info on the existence of a ‘92 D-6nt-hg is solid since I own one! But the D-4 info comes from Gruhn’s 2nd edition, which I’ve long considered one of the more accurate resources available. Gruhn lists the D-4 as being introduced & available in 1992 in a high gloss D-4HG version. He then lists a gloss finish D-4G, available as of 1998 (quite likely the poly finish version!).
Thanks, I knew you were saying you had a D6NT-HG, but not knowing your info source could only guess at why you had an HG spec for the D4.
I do suspect that D4 info is erroneous on both items: it was introduced in '91, as per that Guild Gallery #1 AND the s/n lists, and Beesley has it that way as well:
https://books.google.com/books?id=x...6AEwBHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=GUIld d312&f=false

In looking again at the way he’s got it listed, it’s possible he is saying the nitro HG version was only available in ‘92, and then discontinued. This would seem more logical, since the D-4 was clearly meant to be their low-buck entry into the world of Guilds.
I guess it's possible but I'd be surprised if it really was a one-year only option unless Hans confirms.
If he (Gruhn) got his info from marketing lit, (which could explain some of the errors as Hans has also mentioned the existence of marketing lit errata) then perhaps they contemplated making one and so it found its way into a price list or new model announcement.
Also, I'm positive I've seen other errata in the Gruhn Guide related to lower bout width of either GF or Fxxce series guitars.
IIRC they're listed as 17" lower bouts when they should be 16", it was such a surprise to me I distinctly remember going to other sources to confirm or refute. Think it was related to the very uncommon F35ce, got me started looking on the possibility it would have been the first Fxxce I 'd come across that didn't have a 16" lower bout. (But it does; it's essentially a blinged-down F65ce with a little deeper body IIRC)
Tried to pull up the (Gruhn's Guide) preview on Google books to confirm just now, but it's cut off in the middle of Gibson for previews, currently.
If you've got a hard copy you may want to check my memory.
OK now I'm not sure if it might not have been the Beesly book because I can't review Fxxce's in there right now either.
 
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bobouz

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Also, I'm positive I've seen other errata in the Gruhn Guide related to lower bout width of either GF or Fxxce series guitars. IIRC they're listed as 17" lower bouts when they should be 16", it was such a surprise to me I distinctly remember going to other sources to confirm or refute. Think it was related to the very uncommon F35ce, got me started looking on the possibility it would have been the first Fxxce I 'd come across that didn't have a 16" lower bout. (But it does; it's essentially a blinged-down F65ce with a little deep body IIRC).
If you've got a hard copy you may want to check my memory.
OK now I'm not sure if it might not have been the Beesly book because I can't review Fxxce's in there right now either.

In my 2nd edition copy, Gruhn's got all the GFs @ 16". He does not have the F35ce listed, but the Fxxce models he does have are also 16". Perhaps the error you saw was in the 1st or 3rd editions? I've never owned Beesly's book, so can't help there.

These things are sometimes like a treasure hunt - with no payoff!
 

adorshki

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In my 2nd edition copy, Gruhn's got all the GFs @ 16". He does not have the F35ce listed, but the Fxxce models he does have are also 16". Perhaps the error you saw was in the 1st or 3rd editions? I've never owned Beesly's book, so can't help there.

These things are sometimes like a treasure hunt - with no payoff!

I'd be surprised if that kind of stuff got changed before and after a correct edition, so suspect it must have been the Beesley book, then.
(I note he doesn't show dimensions at all on the GF-25 and -30, for example)
I've only ever seen on-line previews of PDF's for any of those in Google, saved a link to the Beesly book a while back but apparently WHAT shows up for preview changes periodically.
Thanks for the spot check(!), credibility advantage goes back to Gruhn. ( :smile:)
 

billyrum

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Thank you all. Amazing info! I'll do the into test soon. It's at my daughters house., and I haven't looked at it for year or two, although in the 90's it was by my side always. I have a 78 F212 and four Martins now, and it sure seemed like niro, in my scrambled memory. Thanks, again.
 

adorshki

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Thank you all. Amazing info! I'll do the into test soon. It's at my daughters house., and I haven't looked at it for year or two, although in the 90's it was by my side always. I have a 78 F212 and four Martins now, and it sure seemed like nitro, in my scrambled memory. Thanks, again.

To be fair D4's specifically appear to be an exception to Guild's rule about NCL on flat-tops and you can hardly be blamed for thinking that.
Guild obviously didn't go out of their way to make that clear, either.
I actually doubted some members who said their D4's were "poly" in the last couple of years, having forgotten Hideglue's statement, myself.
One more thing:
Up to about '99 I think it was, Guild put a date stamp on a beveled edge of the heel block, it's easy to miss unless you know you're looking for it, and that could further confirm that yours is one of the "G" or "HG" models if it doesn't say so right on the label.
Interested to see what you find, keep us posted!
 
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