1973 Starfire II Bass 'hard' switch

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Does anyone know what the 'hard' switch did on the SF II bass?
I recall it had a bright tone when engaged.
On one video, it was claimed that it was a coil tap switch. Or was it a single / dual coil switch?
 

fronobulax

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Welcome. Lots of discussion of the switch on a JS bass from '71-'77 and AFAIK the Starfires from the same period used the same circuit.

Basically it was a treble cut. In one position it was a fat bassy (some said muddy and indistinct) tone and in the other it wasn't. Or in one position it was bassy and the other bright. If you search you can find photos, circuit diagrams and experiments with bypassing it. They will all be from a JS bass but they should apply.

Note when searching, that it is not the same circuit on Starfires before 1971 but was "incorrectly" called the "suck switch" by at least one of us across the years ~'67-'77. Guild's marketing called it the "deep/hard" switch.

Guild never offered factory wiring for a coil split or tap on basses from '71-'77. But the corresponding guitar had a mini-toggle that I think was advertised as a phase switch so lots of people get it wrong by assuming the guitar and bass models had the same wiring features.
 

hieronymous

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My M-85 II had that switch - I always left it in the "bassy" position, which I assumed was just the "regular" position - on mine (late '71?) the "hard" position was too thin. Maybe it was still the "suck switch"? It struck me as being like the "baritone" switch on a late '60s Gibson EB-2. But then again, I love MUD when done right - always left my EB-2 on the crazy deep mudbucker mode.

This is the only evidence I have, from an ad for a JS-1:

47933319511_238967c5e6_o.jpg
 

mavuser

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the suck switch is on the Hagstrom Bisonic pickup equipped basses (1960s), and has basically no value. it is not really the “switch” per say that sucks...it is the trasformer/choke inside the pickup cavity, it just needs to be bypassed. from there it can be modded further, and the actual switch made usefull, but just bypassing that choke under the neck pickup is the real issue.

On the Guild Humbucker equiped basses (1970s) the humbucker in standard position sounds great but is super hot. the quintesential 70s mud of the power trio. with the deep/hard switch engaged it cuts alot of the heat and sounds closer to a Fender bass tone, but it cuts like half of the signal- turn that up and it sounds fantastic...just dont hit the switch back to fat/mud (intentionlly or not) while its super loud in “Fender mode,” as that could result in an apocalyptic explosion.
 
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On the Guild Humbucker equiped basses (1970s) the humbucker in standard position sounds great but is super hot.
Ah, yes, in those novice days, I tended to assume that "loud" = "good". Took years to discover that less hot pickups had a wider range and better overall tone.
the quintesential 70s mud of the power trio. with the deep/hard switch engaged it cuts alot of the heat and sounds closer to a Fender bass tone, but it cuts like half of the signal- turn that up and it sounds fantastic...just dont hit the switch back to fat/mud (intentionlly or not) while its super loud in “Fender mode,” as that could result in an apocalyptic explosion.
So cutting the signal output sounds a lot like a coil tap, not a roll off filter or coil splitter.
Did it only apply to the neck pickup?

(I'm operating from fuzzy memory. I had the bass from 1973 - 1981?. Sold it in Endicott, NY.)
 

fronobulax

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So cutting the signal output sounds a lot like a coil tap, not a roll off filter or coil splitter.
Did it only apply to the neck pickup?

The "deep/hard" circuit has been analyzed by several people here and it is not a coil tap or splitter. Roll off filter is a better description of the circuit.

It only effected the neck pickup on the JS II and I think I am safe in extrapolating to a Starfire from the same period.

I find mavuser's description does not match my experience as the only owner of a JS II which retains its factory wiring. I have no recollection of having to adjust any volume controls whether the switch was deep or hard. What I can say was that when I bypassed the switch and possibly a resistor using alligator clips the result was LOUD in comparison to the stock wiring and the unmodified bridge pickup. Maybe things are different in a Starfire or maybe I am wrong equating "hot" with "loud".
 

fronobulax

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it is both hotter and louder

Then I guess we really do disagree on whether changing from deep to hard (or visa versa) changes the volume enough to require adjustments to maintain the same perceived loudness at the amp :)
 

mavuser

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Then I guess we really do disagree on whether changing from deep to hard (or visa versa) changes the volume enough to require adjustments to maintain the same perceived loudness at the amp :)

I have played JS-1 1972 bass and SF-1 also 1972 and had similar results (more prevalent w the solid body JS-1). yes it can be controlled/contained to an extent, and made to be sound quite good...at the bass amplifier. still, the full spectrum 70s bass humbucker at the neck is just, all kinds of subwoofing, in a very good way, just needs to be dialed. i have never played the double pickup version of a 70s humbucker bass. i have played the 90s SF-2 bass w 90s humbuckers and no switch at all. those 90s pickups sound like a cross between the 70s deep and hard modes- real nice.

Frono i am wondering how loud u play the JS-2 and with which amp?

Also Hagmeat has said the 70s bucker is hottest w the switch removed all together (too hot), and so he had it put back in. there is chance my previous JS-1 was somehow not stock in the circuitry, but I dont think so. there is also a chance they are not all wired the same from the factory, or at least have different value neck tone pots, which we have seen on SF basses in second half of the 60s.
 
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After more review, I think the deep / hard tone switch for the neck pick up is a HIGH PASS FILTER, rolling off the muddy lows. Whereas the standard tone controls are LOW PASS FILTERS, rolling off the highs.
 

fronobulax

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fronobulax

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Frono i am wondering how loud u play the JS-2 and with which amp?

Seriously? I bought it in 1972 so the answer spans 40+ years :) I owned Ovation and Peavey solid state rigs that put at least 200 watts RMS into 2x15. Also used a tube Ampeg (B4?) into 1x15. I had a modern Ampeg 1x15 combo in the house for a while. Smaller amps include a Line 6 Studio 100 and Phil Jones Bass Cub. Volumes were appropriate for the venue, the presence or absence of a drummer and the days when you didn't run instruments through the PA to fill the house. Don't recall ever maxing out the volume on anything feeding 15's. Needless to say I spent much more time playing at practice volumes than anything louder.

I tend to set my amp for the room, set my instrument controls and do very little changing. I have enough things to worry about when playing. When I toggled the deep/hard switch I had no reason to change anything else. In the absence of volume measurements I did not perceive one setting to be louder than the other. The only "OMG!!! Turn it DOWN!!!!" moment I ever had with the JS was when everything was set for in house practice volumes and I jumpered my way around the switch and plugged it in.
 
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I think I agree but since there was a time when everything I thought I knew was wrong....

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-quot-Deep-Hard-Switch-quot&highlight=circuit

Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation fits.
The hard / bass switch probably switches in a high pass filter, which has a RC time constant designed to cut off low bass frequencies. And its implementation will attenuate the volume.
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_3.html

Methinks that the Squier Vintage Bass VI has a "strangle" switch (high pass filter), too.
 

fronobulax

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Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation fits.
The hard / bass switch probably switches in a high pass filter, which has a RC time constant designed to cut off low bass frequencies.

Just to be clear. I think we know exactly what the circuit does in the JS and there is no probably about it. We could be wrong with what we think we know and we could be wrong in the assumption that the circuit was the same in the JS and the Starfire but there is a high degree of confidence. The ambiguity alluded to comes from me personally. In the referenced thread I incorrectly analyzed the circuit and was corrected. I also find that calling something a "high pass filter" confuses me because the name seems counter-intuitive for the function and I choose to be vague rather than look up the definition.

In any event, I call your attention to

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-Switch-quot&p=1564733&viewfull=1#post1564733

which is what I now believe is the correct analysis of the circuit

and to

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-Switch-quot&p=1566960&viewfull=1#post1566960

which discusses the results of an experiment bypassing the switch

and finally

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-Switch-quot&p=1570534&viewfull=1#post1570534

which has a diagram of the circuit after the mods but you can pretty much figure out what the drawing looked like before.

Google changed their photo sharing technology and there is a lot I have not bothered to rehost and share, including the circuit diagrams.

:)
 
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I also find that calling something a "high pass filter" confuses me because the name seems counter-intuitive for the function and I choose to be vague rather than look up the definition.
In electrical engineering, such passive circuits can only SUBTRACT, hence they are FILTERS, whether low pass (typical tone control), band pass, or high pass ("hard" - which blocks lows and passes highs).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_filter
 

edwin

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The "suck" switch is an interesting thing and one of the first things I bypassed on my Starfire. In the modern age, it seems like a weird thing to have in there (a switch on a bass that gets rid of the bossiness), but my understanding is that it was designed so that the bass could be used in a popular context in recording studios back in the 60s. They would have an upright doubled with an electric bass and use the "suck" switch to get rid of all the lows so that the picked bass would provide a clear attack to the notes and the upright would provide a familiar bottom end. It was a pretty classic thing for country music, often done with Danelectro basses.

At least, that's my theory about the why of it, rather than getting too deeply into the how.
 

mavuser

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there are several Guild 70s humbuckers on Reverb right now. some measure at 8k, some at 17k, and one at 32k. this may add to the confusion as why different basses sound different one way or another when the DH switch is in play.
 

mellowgerman

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The "suck" switch is an interesting thing and one of the first things I bypassed on my Starfire. In the modern age, it seems like a weird thing to have in there (a switch on a bass that gets rid of the bossiness), but my understanding is that it was designed so that the bass could be used in a popular context in recording studios back in the 60s. They would have an upright doubled with an electric bass and use the "suck" switch to get rid of all the lows so that the picked bass would provide a clear attack to the notes and the upright would provide a familiar bottom end. It was a pretty classic thing for country music, often done with Danelectro basses.

At least, that's my theory about the why of it, rather than getting too deeply into the how.

Interesting. I know that's kind of what they did on Lou Reed's "Walk on the Wild Side". The story goes that Herbie Flowers didn't know if they wanted upright or electric, so he brought his doghouse and his jazz bass. They used both and that makes for the unique bass part on the recording.

On a side-note, I always assumed that a bass-suck switch may have also had the purpose of allowing a player to get more clean headroom out of an old tube amp and thereby cut through a live mix better. I know as impressive as an old 2x15 Fender Bassman stack looks, those cabs were lacking in low end and really couldn't handle much of it. I imagine that a healthy 32k Guildbucker could easily destroy those drivers.


there are several Guild 70s humbuckers on Reverb right now. some measure at 8k, some at 17k, and one at 32k. this may add to the confusion as why different basses sound different one way or another when the DH switch is in play.

This is always an important factor to keep in mind when judging the tone of a vintage electric instrument. Magnets can lose their magnetism, coils can be damaged, etc. Also why it's best if you can at least hear a demo clip of a vintage instrument before buying it without a generous return policy
 

fronobulax

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there are several Guild 70s humbuckers on Reverb right now. some measure at 8k, some at 17k, and one at 32k. this may add to the confusion as why different basses sound different one way or another when the DH switch is in play.

Could some of that variation be measurement technique? I seem to recall that you can get significantly different resistance readings if you disconnect the pickup completely from the controls compared to just putting probes at the output jack or on the pickup when it is still "in circuit". I know if you asked me to measure resistance and asked GAD to measure resistance we would get different answers simply because we know different things and I'm lazy.
 
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