roundabout vintage Guild headstock finish question

hieronymous

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A few years back, I picked up a Fender Fatfinger - they were originally made by Groove Tubes, it's the thing you clamp on the headstock to "increase sustain" according to the advertising, or to eliminate dead spots.

32928675707_1b7c0907bc_o.jpg


I just bought it on a whim, experimented a little bit on my Fenders but never found a need for it. However, I noticed that my fretless M-85 with Alembic pickups and electronics has a dead spot at the D on the G string where the 7th fret would be (if it had frets). I thought maybe there was a groove in the fretboard, but recently realized that the 12th fret harmonic on the D string was dead sometimes too. So I thought, how about the Fat Finger? And guess what - it seems to have solved it! I was surprised, but confirmed it while messing around with a fuzz pedal (Z Vex Mastotron) - without the fuzz, the problematic D just dies, but with the Fat Finger all the notes sustain more or less equally (could do more research on this - there MIGHT be a new dead note but I haven't found it yet).

On to my question - the Fat Finger has a felt pad on one side, and some kind of silicone (?) pad on the other.

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Should I worry about the silicone possibly damaging the headstock finish? Would it be safer to have the silicone on the front or the back? I believe it's a '71 - once I used some polish on the back of the neck and the finish came off on the cloth! Here are a couple of gratuitous pics (with serial # removed):

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Maybe put another felt pad over the silicone?
 

fronobulax

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Better safe than sorry. The effort to use "safe" pads will seem trivial in contrast to the years you spend kicking yourself because you added mojo to the finish.

That said at one time, which I think includes '71, the face of the headstock was a plastic like material that would sometimes shrink. That is sufficiently ominous and vague to also suggest caution would be appropriate.
 

hieronymous

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Better safe than sorry. The effort to use "safe" pads will seem trivial in contrast to the years you spend kicking yourself because you added mojo to the finish.

You are right - I think I was hoping someone would say, "don't worry about it, it's been proven that silicone stuff won't harm the wood" or some such. I guess I've got another trip to Ace Hardware...

That said at one time, which I think includes '71, the face of the headstock was a plastic like material that would sometimes shrink. That is sufficiently ominous and vague to also suggest caution would be appropriate.

I did notice that the logo is protruding above the face of the headstock - I never thought that the face was anything other than wood?!!
 

adorshki

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You are right - I think I was hoping someone would say, "don't worry about it, it's been proven that silicone stuff won't harm the wood" or some such. I guess I've got another trip to Ace Hardware...
Nope like Frono said it's a "better safe than sorry" scenario with variables being age of finish and type of silicone rubber, especially if "permanent" mounting is intended.
THE issue is NCL finish, it's susceptible to damage from softening agents in rubber; and while silicone is supposed to be generically "safe"; ya just never know.
 

hieronymous

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Nope like Frono said it's a "better safe than sorry" scenario with variables being age of finish and type of silicone rubber, especially if "permanent" mounting is intended.
THE issue is NCL finish, it's susceptible to damage from softening agents in rubber; and while silicone is supposed to be generically "safe"; ya just never know.

Thank you for reinforcing Frono's message. You also bring up an interesting point about "permanent" mounting. For just playing at home I would probably just leave it on, but if I take it out to rehearsal or - gasp! a gig! - then I'm going to need to be taking it on and off. wondering if I'm just going to place the felt disc between the instrument and the silicone, or try and glue it on somehow? Mightn't the glue affect the headstock somehow down the road? If only I were just slapping it on a Fender...

I think I'm also going to want to find some kind of box for it and the felt to try and keep them together. I just know I'm going to leave it home by accident on the big day of the "Songs in the Key of D" gig...
 

SFIV1967

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I never thought that the face was anything other than wood?!!
It's a thin black celluloid veneer with inlayed Guild logo and a equal thin layer of plywood below. Heat, sunlight, moisture and many other factors lead to deterioration of celluloid. Actually the one on your bass looks still very good! By the way, the truss rod cover is mounted upside down...
Ralf
 

hieronymous

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It's a thin black celluloid veneer with inlayed Guild logo and a equal thin layer of plywood below. Heat, sunlight, moisture and many other factors lead to deterioration of celluloid. Actually the one on your bass looks still very good! By the way, the truss rod cover is mounted upside down...
Ralf

That's good info on the headstock face - I had no idea. This bass is pretty interesting - it's pretty banged up, a previous owner said he played it a lot in a band in college in the '70s, plus the inlays & binding are very yellowed, but it's also in pretty good shape considering it's almost 50 years old!

I know the truss rod cover is on upside down, but I believe the tuners were replaced at some point - they did a good job, but the new ones (Schallers) are much bigger so this is the only way the cover will go on...
 
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SFIV1967

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Don't take the Guild literature as anything that is correct, even at that time many pictures were just copied and pasted, so at a time the bass came out any changes would not show up in the literature of that year. Anyway in 1971 it still might have been the 60ies metal TRC:

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Ralf
 
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adorshki

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That's good info on the headstock face - I had no idea. This bass is pretty interesting - it's pretty banged up, a previous owner said he played it a lot in a band in college in the '70s, plus the inlays & binding are very yellowed, but it's also in pretty good shape considering it's almost 50 years old!
Yes it is.
:smile:
Thank you for reinforcing Frono's message. You also bring up an interesting point about "permanent" mounting. For just playing at home I would probably just leave it on, but if I take it out to rehearsal or - gasp! a gig! - then I'm going to need to be taking it on and off. wondering if I'm just going to place the felt disc between the instrument and the silicone, or try and glue it on somehow? Mightn't the glue affect the headstock somehow down the road?
You're getting the idea.
I'd just use the felt only, very little chance of it containing anything that'd react with NCL,
As for glues, any of the solvent based types are definitely going to melt NCL: anything with toluene or acetone or methyl ethyl ketone, that stuff that says "use in well ventlilated area" including rubber cements.
I think resin types like Elmer's won't melt it but suspect bond would fail after a period of time and probably leave a spot.
Good idea to keep the felts pads (and maybe some spares even) in a little box together with the Fatfinger, and get in the habit of keeping 'em in the case/gigbag so it's always handy.
:friendly_wink:
I know the truss rod cover is on upside down, but I believe the tuners were replaced at some point - they did a good job, but the new ones (Schallers) are much bigger so this is the only way the cover will go on...
Would you believe there was even at least one factory installation (on a 6-string) that resulted in that same requirement, "IIRC" ?.
Apologies I can't recall the model or when exactly we saw it and figured out that was the problem, but seem to recall it was one of the exotically-shaped X-bodies with a corresponding unusually shaped headstock..
 
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hieronymous

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Anyway in 1971 it still might have been the 60ies metal TRC

I can't say for sure, but that's what it looks like to me in the catalog pic (of course the catalog pic is very small and low-res)

I'd just use the felt only, very little chance of it containing anything that'd react with NCL,
As for glues, any of the solvent based types are definitely going to melt NCL: anything with toluene or acetone or methyl ethyl ketone, that stuff that says "use in well ventlilated area" including rubber cements.
I think resin types like Elmer's won't melt it but suspect bond would fail after a period of time and probably leave a spot.
Good idea to keep the felts pads (and maybe some spares even) in a little box together with the Fatfinger, and get in the habit of keeping 'em in the case/gigbag so it's always handy.
:friendly_wink:

My wife is somewhat the crafty type (as in crafts, not as in sneaky and suspicious), so when I told her about the project she whipped out a bag of felt! So I might be taken care of.
 

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I think a purchase of a matching ‘71 is in order so you can have one with the fat finger on, and another with no fat finger to see how the fat fingered one fares in comparison to the non-fat fingered one you will have. 🤩

Or this may justify the purchase of a short scale so you won’t have any dead spots.

Maybe the TRC being upside down is causing the dead spot?😉🤙😎
 

hieronymous

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I think a purchase of a matching ‘71 is in order so you can have one with the fat finger on, and another with no fat finger to see how the fat fingered one fares in comparison to the non-fat fingered one you will have. 🤩

Or this may justify the purchase of a short scale so you won’t have any dead spots.

This one is tempting, even though it's a '74. Yes, I think about getting a fretted one all the time! And of course the difference between fretted & fretless will probably be the most significant difference.

Maybe the TRC being upside down is causing the dead spot?😉🤙😎

The thought occurred to me today! I actually thought it might be the saddle - it's cut kind of strange - glad to know it isn't.
 

fronobulax

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Or this may justify the purchase of a short scale so you won’t have any dead spots.

I'm confused and/or curious. Are you suggesting that any of the instruments discussed in this thread are long (more than 32") scale? I thought I was reading about a Guild ("short scale") with dead spots :)

Is there a joke I am missing or are dead spots believed to be more likely on longer scale basses?

The metal TRC with the "outline" is almost always associated with instruments from 1970 and earlier. 1970 was a transition year across the line of Guild basses. Some of the changes were humbuckers for Bisonics, bigger headstocks and a JS with consistent specs. The M85 is again the exception since the switch from hollow to solid didn't really happen until 1971 at which time the rest of the line was pretty stable.
 

SFIV1967

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If you search for 1971 M-85 you get results with metal or plastic TRC. Problem is that most pictures don't clearly show a serial number so I don't know at what year or periode instrument I look on those pictures. Guild catalog pictures are not at all usable for this as pictures there were reused much longer and changes already happened. Hans would most probably know at what time the TRC changed on a M-85 bass.
Ralf
 

fronobulax

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I could have been clearer.

Kurt's hollow 1970 M85 has a metal TRC. His 1973 solid has plastic.

In general a Guild bass (Starfire, JS, some M85) made in 1971-1977 will have a plastic TRC. A Guild bass (Starfire, JetStar, M85) made earlier (before 1970) will have a metal TRC. 1970's basses have shown a mix of features that were sometimes phased out by 1971 and in other cases "standardized" by 1971

The exception is the M85. My observation is that the hollow bodies, which were as late as 1971 have metal and the solid bodies, introduced in 1971 had plastic.

I have learned that almost any statement I make that tries to relate a specific factory feature to a specific chronology is going to have exceptions. I will consult Hans book on TRCs and see if I choose to qualify anything ;-)
 

hieronymous

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Here's a question to confuse (or clarify) more: when did the M-85 II get the master volume? Mine doesn't have one, the one in the catalog pic I posted on page 1 doesn't, but most that I see do (I'm talking sold-bodies here).
 

fronobulax

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Here's a question to confuse (or clarify) more: when did the M-85 II get the master volume? Mine doesn't have one, the one in the catalog pic I posted on page 1 doesn't, but most that I see do (I'm talking sold-bodies here).

Good question. I found '73's '74's, '75's and '76's with it. I was looking at the images from a Google search on "guild m-85-ii"

By using "guild m-85-ii 1972" I found a '71 that did not have it and a '72 that may have had it. That '72 says "All original except for a filled tap switch and master volume." but does that mean the master volume was added or it was there and it was filled? There is another '72 that definitely does not have it. There is a '72 ad that doesn't have it although we know about ads.

So I'd say the master volume on solid body M-85-II's was not present in 1971, was in place by 1973 and was therefore added in 1972. I'm comfortable with that since specs on the other basses stabilized in 1971 and the M-85 definitely lagged Starfires in terms of what appeared when.
 

fronobulax

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P.S. Han's book says metal TRCs started appearing circa 1961 and the plastic ones that mirrored the headstock shape started "in the early 1970's" which is vague enough to not contradict what I said :)
 
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