Guild 1960 Freshman - Some Questions

So, a friend of mine discovered this beauty in a small mom and pop guitar shop not too terribly far from me. 1960 Freshman. Allegedly mint condition. Guy wants $1300 for it which seems like a fair price. Not a steal, but I see them on sale for $1500+ on reverb.

Does anyone have the original specs on these? Supposedly this was bought for a kid who took three whole lessons on it and gave up, and the mom has had it in a closet until last year when she decided to sell it. Not sure, since I haven't seen it myself.

I'm thinking on going over and giving it a test drive since I am on the search for a playable guitar, and the short scale of this intrigues me.

But I see it called a "Student guitar" a lot. is that just because of its size? Does anyone with regular sized hands like this? Or is it sort of geared to the smaller player?

TIA!

Wow!

GAD said:

Wow!

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Wow... as in...?

GAD said:

Wow!

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... as in that guitar is clean!

From Hans' book: "With the Freshman M-65 Guild was aiming at the beginners market... a model that was a somewhat simpler version of the M-75, with an identical body size, but without the Gold hardware and "Deluxe" trimmings. Unlike the M-75, the M-65 featured traditional f-soundholes and one pickup."

It is definitely worth checking out.

sailingshoes72 said:

From Hans' book: "With the Freshman M-65 Guild was aiming at the beginners market... a model that was a somewhat simpler version of the M-75, with an identical body size, but without the Gold hardware and "Deluxe" trimmings. Unlike the M-75, the M-65 featured traditional f-soundholes and one pickup."

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Yes, and this is the M-65-3/4, which has the same body but with a shorter neck and a shorter scale length; could work for children or people with small hands, but I should add that I have one and enjoy playing it myself.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

The M-65 has 22 frets and a neck to body joint at the 16th fret. The M-65 3/4 has 19 frets and a neck to body joint at the 14th fret.

Here's a picture from Kurt's webpage showing both (in a newer version) next to each other:



Ralf

SFIV1967 said:

The M-65 has 22 frets and a neck to body joint at the 16th fret. The M-65 3/4 has 19 frets and a neck to body joint at the 14th fret.

Here's a picture from Kurt's webpage showing both (in a newer version) next to each other:

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........... in which photo the M-65-3/4 has 20 frets, as opposed to the guitar that is the subject of this thread.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

PittPastor said:

Wow... as in...?

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Just look at it! It looks like it just came from the factory!

GAD said:

Just look at it! It looks like it just came from the factory!

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Exactly! Pitt, at that price you should already be driving over there! That thing looks mint, at least in that photo. And I think that short scale might be a blast to play!

Good luck!

walrus

that does look mint and unplayed. but if u play it with regularity and do not keep it in time capsule shape like that $1300 is a little high for the 3/4, just my opinion. ive seen them go quite a bit lower than that in pretty nice shape (albeit not all were 1960 model year and/or sunburst and/or Franz’d). if it was the full 24.75” standard short scale yes $1300 would be very fair on this for both sides. it is in museum condition right now, but if u are not displaying it in a museum...
I’m assuming this has some sort of period soft case, Guild or otherwise. id be interested at closer to 800-900 and that might even be a little high, unless u are really going to romp on this “xtra short scale” neck set at the 14th fret like an acoustic, but less space between the frets...at 800-1500 you can get a lot of nice standard spec Guilds, starfires, bluesbirds and otherwise, etc. It might not be from 1960 but the 3/4 is a real specific thing. it is a looker for sure but its just not a standard guitar. id even look for a good deal on a newark street aristocrat used (or new), if the freshman interests you. again just my opinion on the price/value for a 3/4 Guild.

Thanks for the feedback all!

Mavuser: Thanks, I was looking for some guidance on the pricing. My friend said that he tried to talk him down and the guy wouldn't budge. I wouldn't play it for a long time and then sell it. It is something that if I decided to turn it, I'd do it quickly. But there is the concern that it is a very specific guitar -- if someone is looking for it, they'll jump at it, but if not... might not go for it at any price.

I'm pretty sure my friend said it came in an OHSC. Tweed I think, if I remember correctly.

I am looking for a "highly playable guitar" -- my left hand isn't fretting like it used to. I can still play, but I am hearing buzzes and deadened strings now that I never used to, and I think it is only a matter of time. So, I'm looking at different options, like jumbo tall frets, and lower tensioned strings. The short scale on this intrigues me for this reason.

Does anyone know radius, nut size, and fret size on this?

I have a NS Aristocrat here that I got from MF. I played it and liked -- but it isn't "the one" I am looking for, so it is now boxed up and I am sending it back. It's easy to play single notes on it, but chording is a struggle for me. Certain chords, like a C#7 I just can't seem to get my fingers out of the way, and I end up deadening one no matter how hard I try not to. Weirdly, I don't have the problem on my Savoy which is -- in theory -- the same nut size and radius. I can't explain why.

Another question: Does that look like the original bridge? IDK. It looks pink in the picture... like its plastic or something.

some other pics:

mavuser said:

that does look mint and unplayed. but if u play it with regularity and do not keep it in time capsule shape like that $1300 is a little high for the 3/4, just my opinion. ive seen them go quite a bit lower than that in pretty nice shape (albeit not all were 1960 model year and/or sunburst and/or Franz’d). if it was the full 24.75” standard short scale yes $1300 would be very fair on this for both sides. it is in museum condition right now, but if u are not displaying it in a museum...
I’m assuming this has some sort of period soft case, Guild or otherwise. id be interested at closer to 800-900 and that might even be a little high, unless u are really going to romp on this “xtra short scale” neck set at the 14th fret like an acoustic, but less space between the frets...at 800-1500 you can get a lot of nice standard spec Guilds, starfires, bluesbirds and otherwise, etc. It might not be from 1960 but the 3/4 is a real specific thing. it is a looker for sure but its just not a standard guitar. id even look for a good deal on a newark street aristocrat used (or new), if the freshman interests you. again just my opinion on the price/value for a 3/4 Guild.

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I agree. It's priced at something of a premium and, as such, it really needs to truly be near mint to justify the ask, IMO (and it looks like it really might be). As for the short scale, full-grown folks play mandolins, so it's not necessarily unplayable, but, that having been said, a lot of people (myself included) will find the whole thing just a little cramped up to get along with, even w/o having especially large hands. If it's close by and interests you, go check it out and see how you like it -- I'd expect it sounds pretty good and they might budge a bit on price if you've got dollar bills in hand.

kakerlak said:

If it's close by and interests you, go check it out and see how you like it -- I'd expect it sounds pretty good and they might budge a bit on price if you've got dollar bills in hand.

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Thanks. It is pretty close by. And I was thinking maybe 10 - 100s in an envelope would be the way to go -- especially if it is a small shop. Some of them get brutalized on CC charges. Cash makes it easier.

Think of it as an investment you can admire and play ;-)

That thing looks Awesome! Granted some here think it is priced at a premium but if you look around lately, prices on M65's have been going up at a regular rate for 2 or so years now. 2-3 years ago you could of picked this one up for $800 and folks would have said you paid too much but now they rarely come up under a $1000 from what I have seen. I have played a 3/4 scale M65 and they are really cool little guitars. In my opinion this one is the cream of the crop as M65 3/4's go. My favorite years are 59 and 60 due to the Franz pickup and also the Foil pickup they used in the 59 M65 3/4.

Bottom line is with this one you get that "Franz" tone which in the neck position should be nice and thick with a bell like quality, The lighter tension of an even shorter than short scale for ease of your fingers and bending strings, and the condition appears to be Amazing. If you can get this one for $1000 like you are thinking then I can't see where you would be going wrong. I would even consider it at the asking price but that is just me personally. Get in the car and go play the thing already! If you don't like it then no harm no foul but I suspect you might really dig it. You never know until you try it!

TX

I have a '64 M65-3/4 with a Franz pickup. The neck is a little narrow at 1 5/8". Combined with the short scale, the fingerboard can be a little cramped. But, like most short scale instruments it frets easily and can be fun to play sometimes.

Sound wise, it's a completely different instrument from my NS Aristocrat. Single notes can be very sweet and pure, perhaps due to the vintage pickup, but pick attack and sustain are characteristic of laminated maple electric archtops; a little dull without too much in the way of harmonics. By comparison, my Korean made Aristocrat with a heavy polyurethane finish is far more lively and dynamic. Maybe it's the spruce top. Maybe it's the lack of f-holes. Maybe it's the longer scale length. Maybe I just got a good M75 and a dud M65. In the end, I don't play the Freshman very often.

DThomasC said:

I have a '64 M65-3/4 with a Franz pickup. The neck is a little narrow at 1 5/8". Combined with the short scale, the fingerboard can be a little cramped. But, like most short scale instruments it frets easily and can be fun to play sometimes.

Sound wise, it's a completely different instrument from my NS Aristocrat. Single notes can be very sweet and pure, perhaps due to the vintage pickup, but pick attack and sustain are characteristic of laminated maple electric archtops; a little dull without too much in the way of harmonics. By comparison, my Korean made Aristocrat with a heavy polyurethane finish is far more lively and dynamic. Maybe it's the spruce top. Maybe it's the lack of f-holes. Maybe it's the longer scale length. Maybe I just got a good M75 and a dud M65. In the end, I don't play the Freshman very often.

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I wonder how much of the sonic difference b/w the two would follow the bridges if you swapped them.

That's a really good question! I'm not going to get around to trying it today, maybe not anytime soon, but I'll keep it in mind and report back.

hansmoust said:

........... in which photo the M-65-3/4 has 20 frets, as opposed to the guitar that is the subject of this thread.

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Oh yes, the different years and different specs...

PittPastor said:

Another question: Does that look like the original bridge? IDK. It looks pink in the picture... like its plastic or something.

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Yes, looks like original to me. It's just how dried out Rosewood looks like. Mind it wasn't played or cared for in all those years. A bit of fretboard conditioner on it and I bet it looks much darker afterwards.

Ralf

Looks great. Not sure (no opinion) about the price. Of course any standard length neck can be turned into a short scale neck with a capo. The 1 5/8 nut width can feel a little tight. It also has the advantage (my opinion) of heavy gauge strings to drive the pickup. Hope you get a chance to try it.