Lowered action, change in tone?

Looking

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Hi all

I bought a Guild D140CE around 4 months ago. I absolutely loved the booming sound it gives out.

The only problem was the action was quite high so I lowered it a little by sanding the bottom of the nut. I might be being paranoid but it seems to have lost a bit of its boom or its edge, whatever you want to call it. It probably sounds the same to everyone else! Has anyone else experienced this? Would lowering the action have that effect?

I might get a new saddle and put it back to how it was. If anyone knows the best place in the UK to get an original Guild saddle then let me know!

Thanks all.
 

Stuball48

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Are you sure you sanded the bottom of the saddle with the same degree of levelness/flatness it had? Touching everywhere perfectly flat?
Just a thought.
 

Looking

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Pretty sure I did but I'll double check though. Thanks!
 

gjmalcyon

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Are you sure you sanded the bottom of the saddle with the same degree of levelness/flatness it had? Touching everywhere perfectly flat?
Just a thought.

+1. Bottom of the saddle has to be perfectly flat and true to maximize contact with bridge and energy transfer from strings to body. Hard to do freehand, as I have discovered in customizing my own saddles. I think you can order a direct-fit replacement saddle from Guild.
 

Looking

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Thanks. They dont seem to ship to the UK, I'll have to try a dealer.
 

GAD

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Hans is in The Netherlands. If he can help you he will.
 

adorshki

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Hi all

I bought a Guild D140CE around 4 months ago. I absolutely loved the booming sound it gives out.

The only problem was the action was quite high so I lowered it a little by sanding the bottom of the nut.
I assume that was a typo because you say:
"I might get a new saddle and put it back to how it was"
and "Would lowering the action have that effect?"
The answer is that in fact yes the saddle does directly impact volume but it is somewhat surprising that it sounded that apparent to you.
I'm guessing you might have lowered it a "lot", like an 1/8" or more.
And yes, a guitar sounds very different from right in front than from the player's position so an audience may well not notice.
What others said about ensuring saddle's bottom is perfectly flat for full contact with bottom of bridge slot is true, but assuming you did do that properly, here's the physics of how strings make a top vibrate:
The angle of the strings over the saddle is called the "break angle", that angle behind the saddle created by the location of the pin holes and the height of the saddle.
The taller the saddle, the sharper the break angle:
torquemodel.gif

Here's the deal: all the string energy's transmitted through the saddle right at the point of contact, and the sharper the break angle, the more string tension (energy) and vibration is transmitted through the saddle and bridge to the top.
Of course there's a range of acceptable saddle height, but over the years makers have come to a fairly common agreement that the ideal height of the bridge and saddle combined is in the neighborhood of a 1/2"; that allows for the optimum transfer of energy to the top yet still allows acceptable action at the 12th fret.
Of that 1/2" typically the bridge is around 5/16" and the saddle around 3/16" above its slot.
Again those are just "ideals" that are tailored to each guitar according to its neck set angle.
When the saddle's installed it's typically given a height to yield the "action height" of clearance from the 12th fret on the bass E string.
Guild's action height for US-built guitars in the '90's was 6/64 on bass and 5/64 on treble E.
Another member with much wider experience in various brands than myself recently mentioned that's actually a pretty common spec in the industry and I suspect an MIC Guild would use it, as a good general purpose starting point for an individual to tailor to their taste.
Anyway, lowering the saddle does reduce the break angle and thus does have some effect on volume, but as I mentioned, it's normally not so large as to be as noticeable as you seem to perceive.
The formula to lower the action height is to remove double the amount from the saddle as you want to lower the action at the 12th fret , ie, if you want to lower the action by a 64th you must lower the saddle by a 32nd.
And that in itself shouldn't be a major impact on a saddle with an ideal 3/16" height, but if the saddle is lower than 1/8" after lowering, then yes it probably has a very poor break angle and I'd expect volume would be noticeably impacted.

Ok, having explained that, let's get back to your primary concern: Playability
A lot of folks don't realize how much the nut slot depths affect "feel" especially down at the first 3 frets, but that's also an area a good luthier checks when giving your guitar a personalized set-up.
Making those slots just a tiny bit deeper can have a sizable impact on playability on up the neck even, so suggest looking into that, too.
Here's a great site with more info by highly respected luthier Frank Ford of Gryphon Instruments in Palo Alto CA:
http://frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html
About saddles:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/Saddle/saddle01.html
About checking nut slot clearance:
http://frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html
Now you can converse with a luthier intelligently.
:smile:
I suggest having luthier do nut slots if you do decide to get 'em fine-tuned, because the tools (slot files) are expensive and you'll undoubtedly wind up going through at least a couple of blanks while getting the hang of it.
Also, getting an actual Guild saddle blank isn't necessary: most anybody (luthier) can fashion a new saddle from a blank of the proper thickness.
But those guitars did have bone saddles (and nuts) and I suggest sticking with that material, bone's got a good reputation for tone.
 
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Guildedagain

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Saddle does have to be perfectly square as mentioned, and it's very easy to shim back up with the right thick/thinness shim, maple being the best material, even just paper is ok, paper is wood right?

I've come to realize that there's hardly a guitar out there that's set up as low as it should be in the nut, causing C major, D and G chords to sound sharp (awful), and thx to being here and getting a good understanding of the Frank Ford method for setting "nut action", I'm now able to do this to my guitars.

Although, like on a Dobro, maybe you don't want the lowest nut height possible, and yes it does make guitars "louder" and "boomier" to have the strings up high.

But, I say make the guitar play sweet "where the money's at", and if you lose boominess, so be it. It's still better than sour notes and the eventual carpal tunnel or whatever from having to work at lot harder at chording that you should have to.

I'm also realizing that's why you se all the best payers capo'd up somewhere up to four frets from the nut. You're playing a guitar (shorter scale) with a zero fret now, a completely different animal that knows nothing of nut slot height.
 
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adorshki

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Saddle does have to be perfectly square as mentioned, and it's very easy to shim back up with the right thick/thinness shim, maple being the best material, even just paper is ok, paper is wood right?
It's not as dense , so not as efficient a transmission medium, would act more like a sponge at thicknesses great enough to be useful.
Stick with the maple, nice and hard for good energy pass-through to the bridge, and much more dimensionally stable, too. (Won't tend to compress to thinner gauge over time.)
:friendly_wink:

But, I say make the guitar play sweet "where the money's at", and if you lose boominess, so be it. It's still better than sour notes and the eventual carpal tunnel or whatever from having to work at lot harder at chording that you should have to.
Agreed, although a lot of volume can be recovered with simple technique adjustment: arc of string travel is responsible for a lot of volume and tone, it's one reason why hitting a string at midpoint sounds so much different than close to saddle, and why lights can actually sound almost if not just as loud as mediums especially on guitars designed for 'em.
 
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Cougar

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....the "break angle", that angle behind the saddle created by the location of the pin holes and the height of the saddle.....

torquemodel.gif


Nice diagram, adorshki! A mathematician would say "The length of a-b is inversely proportional to the break angle Omega." But more break angle means "flatter," which robs the vibrational throughput to the bridge and soundboard. So if the length of a-b is reduced by shaving the saddle, you'll get less downward pressure by the strings on the bridge, so probably a little less volume.
 

adorshki

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Nice diagram, adorshki!
Of course I can't take credit for it, it was just the best thing I could find quickly.
A mathematician would say "The length of a-b is inversely proportional to the break angle Omega." But more break angle means "flatter," which robs the vibrational throughput to the bridge and soundboard. So if the length of a-b is reduced by shaving the saddle, you'll get less downward pressure by the strings on the bridge, so probably a little less volume.
Yes, couldn't remember what the name for that "Omega" symbol was, but it's why I said a sharper break angle is better, (up to a point of diminishing returns) it creates more tension on the top.
Technically you're correct, a "bigger" angle would be flatter and thus lower tension on the saddle.
But shortening the length of a-c also acts to decrease the break angle, it's the reason for ramping the pin holes to regain volume that may have been lost while lowering a saddle.
But probably overkill for our OP's purposes at this point, unless he discovers that he really does need a lower than optimum saddle height for his needs.
 

cutrofiano

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...you'll undoubtedly wind up going through at least a couple of blanks while getting the hang of it.

Not to forget: You want to have a tight fit of the nut in the slot - equal and individually leveled on both sides:

Evo%20III%201.JPG


Evo%20III%202.JPG


Any gap means a loss of tone transmitting contact to neck and fingerboard.
As the slot of my MIC GAD was not 100% precise (height on both side, flatness of the bottom and 90° angle) a have lost more blanks on this than on slotting itself.
Still: Slotting to the point is always close to the edge of (buzzing) disaster :upset:
I think it took me all in all about 12 bone blanks (~1/2 cow ) until i was satisfied.

Moritz
 

Looking

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Yes sorry, that was a typo. I sanded the saddle not the nut. I only sanded it a couple of mm.

Great replies everyone, thanks. Im a science teacher so those explanations really appealed!

Guild got back to me and can ship a new saddle to me in the UK. I'll let you know if it makes a difference or Im just paranoid!

Thanks all!
 

adorshki

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Yes sorry, that was a typo. I sanded the saddle not the nut. I only sanded it a couple of mm.
Very roughly just over 1/16" of an inch (5/64, sorry, I'm used to english specs as that's what Guild used "back in the day"); so maybe it was enough to be audible to sensitive ears.

Guild got back to me and can ship a new saddle to me in the UK. I'll let you know if it makes a difference or Im just paranoid!
Thanks all!
Yeah, let us know!
Good luck!
 

cutrofiano

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Nice pics Morris, what are you shooting with?
A 18 year old Olympus Camedia 3040ZOOM.
Outstanding feature in its time (for why I chose it) was the 1:1,8 aperture.
The pictures above have only 0,96 MP at slim 140 (170) kb.
Number of pixels is commonly overrated...

Moritz
 
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billymox

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Word is here among E. Tennessee bluegrass pickers is to keep action at the 12th fret as high as you can to maintain optimal volume and tone.
 

bobouz

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Don't know if it was already mentioned & I missed it, but it's also very important to assure the saddle is not rocking slightly north & south. You want a snug & tight fit when the saddle is pushed into the bridge slot, but you should still be able to pull it back out with some reasonably mild upward force. This essentially means you want a very accurate fit. Sometimes a slot will be slightly wider on one side than the other, so be methodical & check everything - it can make a noticeable difference.

To get a flat base, I put a file up against a flat miter-box edge & basically trap the saddle into position. The saddle will be pulled forward when under tension, so it's crucial to have an accurate right angle on the front side for the best surface to surface fit. Once the base is truly flat with a tight 90 angle on the front, I leave it alone & work from the top down to lower the action. If at all possible, avoid shims & start over if you go too low. It's pretty much a given that you'll lose a little transfer with a shim, but hey, I've been there, too, & used them temporarily until getting around to cutting another new saddle.
 
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