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Thread: Selling over seas

  1. #1
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    Selling over seas

    Just a general question about selling out of the country.

    I'm going to sell a guitar or two via Reverb. If someone outside the country wants to buy my NS X-175B Manhatten, which has a rosewood fingerboard and bridge, is that going to be a CITIES issue ?
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator fronobulax's Avatar
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    You might look at http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sho...FWS-newsletter while waiting.

    My personal opinion based upon no facts or experience whatsoever is that if the customs agents decide something is rosewood and choose to act on that decision then the guitar will not leave the country. The regulatory environment to establish that an instrument is CITES compliant and change the agent's job from looking at and identifying wood to reading a document, is in progress but is not in place. I don't recall all the possible penalties but confiscation without compensation is one of them. I am by nature risk adverse and so I would just advertise sale to US only, like so many other sellers are doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by mgod View Post
    What he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuball48 View Post
    Frono: You are correct----again.

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  3. #3
    Senior Member SFIV1967's Avatar
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    The next big CITES meeting will be held in Colombo, Sri Lanka, from 23 May to 3 June 2019.
    There is a proposal to change the rules for musical instruments! Let's see.
    https://www.cites.org/eng/cop/index.php

    Below are some of the proposed changes:

    For Dalbergia sissoo
    (North Indian rosewood):

    "Delete from Appendix II"

    For Dalbergia spp., Guibourtia demeusei, Guibourtia pellegriniana, Guibourtia tessmannii (Rosewoods, Palisanders and Bubingas):

    "Amend annotation #15 as follows:

    "All parts and derivatives, except:
    a) leaves, flowers, pollen, fruits, and seeds;
    b) finished products to a maximum weight of wood of the listed species of 500g per item;

    c) finished musical instruments, finished musical instrument parts and finished musical instrument accessories;
    d) parts and derivatives of Dalbergia cochinchinensis, which are covered by annotation # 4;e) parts and derivatives of Dalbergia spp. originating and exported from Mexico, which are covered by annotation # 6.""

    For Pericopsis elata (African rosewood, Afrormosia):

    "Expand the scope of the annotation for Pericopsis elata (currently #5) to include plywood and transformed wood as follows:
    "Logs, sawn wood, veneer sheets, plywood, and transformed wood1."
    1 Whereby transformed wood is defined by HS code 44.09: Wood (including strips, friezes for parquet flooring, not assembled), continuously shaped (tongued, grooved, v-jointed, beaded or the like) along any edges, ends or faces, whether or not planed, sanded or end-jointed."

    For Pterocarpus tinctorius (African padauk, mukula):

    "Include in Appendix II"

    For Cedrela spp. (Cedars):

    "Include in Appendix II"


    I believe the last point is only for the Cedars (Cedrela spp) from Middle and South America, not the Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata).

    Ralf
    Last edited by SFIV1967; 04-10-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  4. #4
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    This is likely a lousy answer but it's just my own opinion. I used to love selling overseas for a few reasons:

    1.) Overseas buyers often times don't have the ability to buy higher quality gear made in the USA at a reasonable price.

    2.) They seemed to me to be appreciative of being able to buy such gear

    3.) Their offers were often times much more reasonable than some of the stupid low-ball offers you tend to get from many buyers here in the USA

    4.) They weren't as willing to find a small issue and make a big deal out of it to try to blackmail the seller into a credit to avoid a return

    The whole CITES thing threw all that out the window for me though. I haven't shipped any guitar out of the USA for years, nor would I consider doing so regardless of tonewoods. I just don't want the hassle.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by richardp69 View Post
    This is likely a lousy answer but it's just my own opinion. I used to love selling overseas for a few reasons:

    1.) Overseas buyers often times don't have the ability to buy higher quality gear made in the USA at a reasonable price.

    2.) They seemed to me to be appreciative of being able to buy such gear

    3.) Their offers were often times much more reasonable than some of the stupid low-ball offers you tend to get from many buyers here in the USA

    4.) They weren't as willing to find a small issue and make a big deal out of it to try to blackmail the seller into a credit to avoid a return

    The whole CITES thing threw all that out the window for me though. I haven't shipped any guitar out of the USA for years, nor would I consider doing so regardless of tonewoods. I just don't want the hassle.

    Richard


    Your answer is anything but lousy - looking from this side of the pond.

    1. They are very rare or just do not exist!
    2. Sure - I was sooo happy to get that red Songbird from USA + plus some other stuff before that.
    3. Naturally we try to get them as low we can, but we learn to offer the right price.
    4. Almost everything I ever bought used had some issues - but then I always knew I was buying used - never collector grade, while that's not my alley. Most of the time I knew there was issue simply reading description - even if it was not mentioned. But if price was right - why not?



    I'm still a bit sour for that lovely S300 that I almost got, but because of CITES it ended at Mellowgermans friend . . . That guitar was far from collectible - but for me at that price + shipping it would have been a dream come true. When you play and it sounds better than you - who cares about little dings ? Besides - when them dings and scratches are there already - I do not have to worry about getting new ones . . .

    PS - Mellowgerman was very helpful trying to get the guitar for me - so no bad feelings that direction .
    First good guitar - GUILD Duane Eddy 400 - I was 3rd owner - still regret letting it go 25 years ago - used to have Artist Award and Starfire - no regrets here.
    Present guitars - all bought new - F50R 1975 - F512 1977 - F212CSB 1979 - OM-240CE 2018 - Schecter Startocaster
    Bought secondhand - B30SB fretless - RED Songbird - White Songbird - S-60D - D-125 - Gibson 3/4-size acoustic 1957 - Carmelo Gonzales nylon string - old Levin Lute

  6. #6
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW63 View Post
    Just a general question about selling out of the country.

    I'm going to sell a guitar or two via Reverb. If someone outside the country wants to buy my NS X-175B Manhatten, which has a rosewood fingerboard and bridge, is that going to be a CITIES issue ?
    Short answer: "Yes".
    Long answer:
    I think the "loophole" is that if it's EIR, it is actually "pre-CITES", the comprehensive rosewood listing didn't take effect until January '17.
    So yes I think you need to obtain paperwork that verifies it's pre-CITES EIR, but otherwise you're "safe".
    Or wait it out to see if the musical instrument exemption Ralf described is adapted.
    But I still think you're going to need to provide paperwork proving it's EIR as opposed to Braz, because as I understand it Braz is and will remain completely prohibited from ANY international commercial transactions.
    I could be wrong but it can't hurt to verify with FWS (US gov't. agency tasked with overseeing CITES compliance)/
    Last edited by adorshki; 04-10-2019 at 06:08 PM.
    Al
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  7. #7
    It doesn't matter what the rules are. What matters is, will some overzealous customs agent seize your guitar?
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  8. #8
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAD View Post
    It doesn't matter what the rules are. What matters is, will some overzealous customs agent seize your guitar?
    NOT if it's got proper documentation.
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  9. #9
    Super Moderator fronobulax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adorshki View Post
    NOT if it's got proper documentation.
    Can I get proper documentation today? How do I get it? How long does it take? What do I have to provide to get the documentation? Is there any assurance that the Customs Agents have been trained recently enough to recognize and accept the documentation?

    I think GADs point is valid ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by mgod View Post
    What he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuball48 View Post
    Frono: You are correct----again.

    '67 Starfire I Bass (Cherry)
    '71 JS II Bass (Walnut)
    '82 B-50 Acoustic Bass (Natural)
    '87 Pilot (Black)
    '13 Newark Street Starfire Bass (Cherry)
    '16 Betts Bass "Walnut Bottom"

    LMG I, II, III

    This space available.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fronobulax View Post
    Can I get proper documentation today? How do I get it? How long does it take? What do I have to provide to get the documentation? Is there any assurance that the Customs Agents have been trained recently enough to recognize and accept the documentation?

    I think GADs point is valid ;-)

    HAH

    I remember when back then I had sent a rental bill to national TV-company - long after the money was supposed to be on my account I called and asked - the "lady" said I needed to have a "X" - I knew I did not and explained the reason to her - she replied : "I see - well - this is going to take some time." Three months later I got my money. Had I been more humble it might've been just one month . . .

    Lesson : Do not step on their shoes!
    First good guitar - GUILD Duane Eddy 400 - I was 3rd owner - still regret letting it go 25 years ago - used to have Artist Award and Starfire - no regrets here.
    Present guitars - all bought new - F50R 1975 - F512 1977 - F212CSB 1979 - OM-240CE 2018 - Schecter Startocaster
    Bought secondhand - B30SB fretless - RED Songbird - White Songbird - S-60D - D-125 - Gibson 3/4-size acoustic 1957 - Carmelo Gonzales nylon string - old Levin Lute

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