Tidy Headstocks

kakerlak

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
2,354
Reaction score
128
Location
Oklahoma
I'd never considered the break angle over the nut before... What do you guys perceive is the advantage of a more extreme break angle over the nut? I'd actually think less is better as you don't want strings binding on the nut during tuning.

Not much on anything with a tilt-back headstock and I don't usually bother trying to wind a whole bunch of string onto those for that reason, but it makes a difference on guitars with a shallower angle and/or longer run to the tuners. Shallow enough and you'll get some ringing past the nut and a "plonk" with a heavy hand -- think Telecaster G strings. So I'll try to wind most of my Fenders down close to the bottom of the tuner shaft on all the non-treed strings.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
The curled up strings ends on my F30 because I didn’t know how long I’d be leaving them on. Just about the prettiest job I ever done, I’ll say ;-)) That's the new nut I tried my hardest to screw up, but some force (not Murphy) made it come out nearly divine, and the guitar is freakin loud now.
large.jpg
That's what I like to see, I like my girls with nice tight curls.
But I wrap mine with nothing but sheer friction of string against post, just a little slight arc where it enters the hole, that tightens up and disappears under tension.
THAT's the tricky part, allowing enough leader for sufficient wraps while still keeping the string taught enough between nut and posthole to wind evenly on the post, and keeping that "arc" from becoming a kink, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of using a pure friction wrap.
I just think it allows the best fine-tuning.

PS is it just the photo angle or does that "B" slot look like it's not quite centered up between the G and the E?
A highly-respected luthier's trainee did that on the G slot when I got a bone nut and saddle put into the D25 when it got its first re-fret.
It was driving me "nuts" for a couple of hours until I looked closely and figured out what was going on.
And this guy was actually the Doobie Brothers' tech (!) whom I shall leave unnamed out of sheer courtesy.
He did replace it no charge, but I never went back.
Figured he should have caught it in the first place.
But I
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
I'd never considered the break angle over the nut before... What do you guys perceive is the advantage of a more extreme break angle over the nut? I'd actually think less is better as you don't want strings binding on the nut during tuning.
Strings're less likely to pop out of their slots is only thing I can think of.
If you get binding on the nut something's wrong with the nut slot, I never had that on any of mine.
 

walrus

Reverential Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
23,957
Reaction score
8,019
Location
Massachusetts
That's what I like to see, I like my girls with nice tight curls.
But I wrap mine with nothing but sheer friction of string against post, just a little slight arc where it enters the hole, that tightens up and disappears under tension.
THAT's the tricky part, allowing enough leader for sufficient wraps while still keeping the string taught enough between nut and posthole to wind evenly on the post, and keeping that "arc" from becoming a kink, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of using a pure friction wrap.
I just think it allows the best fine-tuning.

My decades-long technique also...

walrus
 

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
13,923
Reaction score
6,520
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
I'd never considered the break angle over the nut before... What do you guys perceive is the advantage of a more extreme break angle over the nut? I'd actually think less is better as you don't want strings binding on the nut during tuning.

I thought the same thing Charlie. AFAIK, break angle is only important over the saddle, because it helps drive the top of an acoustic guitar. I've always preferred headstock designs where the trajectory of the string between the nut and the tuner post was as straight as possible, like on my Bourgeois.

47429670981_72c15fd5e6_b.jpg



Funny, what's being called the 'Taylor Method' here is essentially how I first learned to install strings in 1971, except for leaving more string exposed at the end & putting a sharp kink in it.

FWIW, I only call it the "Taylor Method" because that's where I found it!
 

Guildedagain

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,164
Location
The Evergreen State
I'd never considered the break angle over the nut before... What do you guys perceive is the advantage of a more extreme break angle over the nut? I'd actually think less is better as you don't want strings binding on the nut during tuning.

The down angle behind the nut can affect quite a bit. Binding is probably not an issue much with bone and a properly sized slot. For a .036" string, you'd use the .042 file, give it a little room (warning, this is from memory).

The down angle affects playability or "bounce" in the nut area, the cowboy chord area, among other things probably.

Early Gibson guitars had pronounced headstock pitch, 17º. Gradually, through the Norlin era the angle got shallower and shallower to prevent breakage (also added a nice volute ;-) until the headstock was virtually flat like a Fender. This really killed the playability up by the nut (and the tone), the guitars just don't have the same feel, it's harder to get your fingers under the strings perhaps.

Same thing with down angle at the bridge/tailpiece on a Les Paul/SG/335 stop tailpiece stye guitars.

If you slam the tailpiece to the body, you get the greatest amount of resonance, sustain, and also the best playability. Most rock stars seem to like to screw the tailpiece right down to the wood, I aways do. But others like to do that and then wrap the string around over the top of the tailpiece, lowering the tension by raising the break angle for a mushier feel.

Down angle at the ends of strings seems to be a really important thing.

I think you have the right amount of wrap on a Guild style guitar (pitched headstock) when the strings are perfectly perpendicular to the headstock face. Often times, you need extra wraps on the shortest strings to achieve that angle.

The Eric Johnson Strat actually has tuners that get short as you get farther from the nut so as to not need a string tree.

It's a science into itself, like every other part of the guitar ;-)
 
Last edited:

Brucebubs

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
2,154
Reaction score
1,550
Location
Eden, Australia
I use a version of the 'Taylor' method, however, I do not 'pre-cut' the string.

Just string through the tuner - pull back a little slack - start winding - all winds under the 1st one (No 'one over, rest under') - string up to tension then cut off excess.

These are DR Sunbeam round core PB's on my Epiphone EJ-200 and the tuning stability is superb.

DBIhiBrl.jpg
aWdJxGxl.jpg
 

Guildedagain

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,164
Location
The Evergreen State
I thought the same thing Charlie. AFAIK, break angle is only important over the saddle, because it helps drive the top of an acoustic guitar. I've always preferred headstock designs where the trajectory of the string between the nut and the tuner post was as straight as possible, like on my Bourgeois.

47429670981_72c15fd5e6_b.jpg





FWIW, I only call it the "Taylor Method" because that's where I found it!


Man that's pretty.

What's going on with the nut there, are my eyes playing tricks or does the nut look stepped up at the ends?

And you're right, some guys, like Leo Fender wanted the strings to go through the nut straight. But then he added a string tree to add down angle to the longest strings.
Later, they added a second string tree, and used the windings on the low E and A strings to push the strings down a little.

This is why Fender guys (as previously mentioned here) like to overwind the bass strings a little.
 
Last edited:

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
Man that's pretty.

What's going on with the nut there, are my eyes playing tricks or does the nut look stepped up at the ends?


Th TRC is leaning flush against nut and covering middle section lower edge.
 

cutrofiano

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
207
Reaction score
25
Location
Freiburg / Germany
I don't take off all strings at a time as the resulting strain relief causes avoidable stress to the neck.
I can see no disadvantage working process wise to do it string by string.

Moritz
 

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
13,923
Reaction score
6,520
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
Th TRC is leaning flush against nut and covering middle section lower edge.

Our Finnish friend beat me to it! It is a bit of an illusion though. Seen from the other direction.

46707132944_44b98d11e5_b.jpg


I don't take off all strings at a time as the resulting strain relief causes avoidable stress to the neck.
I can see no disadvantage working process wise to do it string by string.

Moritz

I'm the same way, and always do one string at a time unless I'm doing some serious cleaning while restringing.
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
Is there a specific way for the ball to lay ?
I do it kind of different that's why I ask.
I keep the ball parallel to pin and nut .
I first put a bend about a 1/2 inch up from the ball so when it's inserted I'm assured it's under the bridge plate and not misaligned causing abnormal wear to the pin and bridge plate.

I do one string at a time mostly because I'm sitting in my lazy chair lol

At this point it's kind of the same as the Taylor vid . I thread the string and adjust the length at the nut . One finger over the slot to hold it down two/three under which gives me the length .

On the winding part my first wind is over the top the rest under locking the cut end .

There might be weakness's in what I do but my pins do not show much wear if any .

The thing is the pin and bridge slots might not be exact often I find both not properly sized to the gauged string , yes the thick ones lol

So I make sure there under the bridge plate as much as possible.

I'm kind of in favor of the slotted bridge method though but that's tit for tat . 😁
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
I don't take off all strings at a time as the resulting strain relief causes avoidable stress to the neck.
I back' em off gradually, alternating strings under the assumption it'd be similar to backing off the tension on opposing wheel nuts on a car wheel.
Besides, the truss rod's already exerting its own stabilizing stress on the neck.
I never really bought into that proposition that taking 'em ALL off at once was bad for the neck, unless somehow maybe you were able to snip 'em all at the same time, while at full tension.
Oh, maybe that's what these are for:
prod_4830478302



Otherwise, how the hell're you ever gonna be able to clean up the fingerboard?
:glee:
 
Last edited:

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Is there a specific way for the ball to lay ?
I do it kind of different that's why I ask.
I keep the ball parallel to pin and nut .
I first put a bend about a 1/2 inch up from the ball so when it's inserted I'm assured it's under the bridge plate and not misaligned causing abnormal wear to the pin and bridge plate.
After a few years the pins on my D25 looked much like the top and bottom pins here:
pins4.jpg

So I orient the ball end the way they're shown there on the assumption that that way they'll damage the pin slots as little as possible.
That pin in the middle looks like it had its ball end shoved up its slot sideways.
Hell, it even looks like the tooth I had extracted recently, and THAT was pretty bad.
:disgust:
 

F312

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
2,760
Reaction score
958
Time to call Bob Colosi, I forgot to ask him what kind of bone he uses but it looks better than anything I've seen, nuts, saddles and pins, one-stop shop, and he'll even talk to you.

No affiliation.

Ralph
 

walrus

Reverential Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
23,957
Reaction score
8,019
Location
Massachusetts
I keep a spool of waxed dental floss in my kit for this - I floss my nut slots every time I change strings.

[I am literally laughing out loud as I type that]

Well, I laughed out loud when I read it! :congratulatory:

walrus
 

Guildedagain

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,164
Location
The Evergreen State
Floss ;-)

Don't underestimate the power of wax, especially beeswax. I use it as a drilling fluid, touch hot drill bit to it, and go. Amazing stuff, and tough...
 

cutrofiano

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
207
Reaction score
25
Location
Freiburg / Germany
Besides, the truss rod's already exerting its own stabilizing stress on the neck.
The construction's immanent strength of the neck plus the truss rod (actio = reactio) withstand approx. 110 lb of string tension.
-> As truss rod and strings hold a balance, the truss rod only causes stress to the neck if you take the strings off all at a time without releasing the truss rod.
I don't say it kills the guitar, I only mean the extra stress is avoidable.

Otherwise, how the hell're you ever gonna be able to clean up the fingerboard?
See above ;-)

Moritz
 
Last edited:
Top